The doctrine of Hell without the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
I often get into discussions on hell and this parable comes up. In my view and in many persons' views this is a parable not about hell, but about the relationship of the Pharisees and Jews and the covenants and also about the Gentiles.
I see an entire geography of hell created by many out of this one parable with people determining locations of the 'great gulf' and the 'bosom of Abraham' etc. This is not about proving whether this is a parable or not.
What I want to see is if you can prove Hell is this unendingly burning place that evil people go to without using this passage. That's your challenge for today. Remember: in your argument you cannot appeal to this passage as anything but a parable about the Jews and Gentiles and the changing covenants. In other words, you can't use it to talk about Hell.
Have at it.
Hell is described as a place of torment that will never end, prepared for the devil and his angels. There unbelievers will spend eternity.
(All the verses quoted are ESV)
Matthew 3:12:
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 13:42:
and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 5:29-30:
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9:
6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Jude 7:2:
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
2 Peter 2:4:
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Mark 9:43-48:
43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
And it's eternal:
Matthew 25:46:
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Even using these passages without using the parable, it is not good to ignore pertinent and supporting passages in the Bible.
where does it say they will spend eternity there? Your statement at the top says that , but I don't see it. I once asked a preacher why he believed that in light of what the Greek words meant and the context of what 'eternal fire' was. He agreed that the terms could only mean unending life in hell only if a person had an unending eternal soul and he noted that the bible indicated one did.
I looked him in the eye and asked for that verse stating we have an unending, eternal soul.
I waited for the longest time before I told him that 'God only has immortality'. There is no verse that indicates your soul is unending and there are plenty that show that God can destroy it and end it. You quoted a couple.
Go on.
Several verses speak to eternity. Read them again.
It is Jesus who coins the most common description of hell: the place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30). If we inquire how long this "weeping and gnashing of teeth" continues, he tells us in Matthew 25. After Jesus pronounces judgment on the sheep and goats (believers and unbelievers), he announces that the unbelievers "will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). We can no more argue biblically against the eternity of hell than the eternity of heaven.
Which verses support hell as only a temporary punishment?
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
Several verses speak to eternity. Read them again.
It is Jesus who coins the most common description of hell: the place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30). If we inquire how long this "weeping and gnashing of teeth" continues, he tells us in Matthew 25. After Jesus pronounces judgment on the sheep and goats (believers and unbelievers), he announces that the unbelievers "will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). We can no more argue biblically against the eternity of hell than the eternity of heaven.
Which verses support hell as only a temporary punishment?
That's pretty good. But topologically all I can fit together from that first verse is that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is the effect of the punishment. The punishment is defined as death almost everywhere I read. Death by fire. As I understand, the consequences of death by fire are quite permanent and eternal.
Matthew 25:46 would then therefore mean eternal punishment (of death). this eternal, everlasting punishment of death would contrast with eternal life quite nicely. Your inference of the eternity of hell is an inference here. I'm rolling these things around but there are many assumptions that one really has to make to make this fit. So, we actually can argue against the eternity of 'hell' pretty effectively without destroying the concept of everlasting life. Anyway, that's good. How do you reconcile this with the 'death' verses and the 'immortality' verses?
But I do appreciate your take on this. Often I hear people talk and the first thing they do is bring up the Luke 16 parable which I don't see as anything but that: a parable. It's hard to make an entire doctrine out of one passage like that but people do seem to do a good job. As far as verses indicating it as temporary, let me get back to you on that. It's a little late and I've had some dealings with my son on some issues. Will talk later.
My question is,
When is this judgment to occur? Christ said he would do a final judgment. When is this? When we die? Or when the world is done?
If it is when the world is done....where are we until that occurs. If the parable is correct (which I assume it is- the stories used as parables are truthful ones), then we have a place to wait then where those of us that have followed Christ will sit beside him and those that have not will wait a ways off.
It cannot be both ways. He said a final judgment will come- this tells me it hasn't happened yet. We are in waiting somewhere where people both good and evil are separated to await this FINAL judgment.
One can be 'in hell' here and in torment because of one's life and I believe that KNOWING we had a choice and we chose wrong and will be punished forever for it can be a burning hell. We speak about a person being 'consumed' with rage or passion, consumed with guilt. We make our own hell as it were.
Death or Eternal Death? Spiritual death as a term, is the absence of the Holy Spirit in our lives or the separation of the soul from God. So we CAN have a SPIRITUAL DEATH for eternity with God fully separating us from him. You have seen those that have spiritual death on the streets where Satan has taken firm hold. They are dead inside. This is what may very well happen after the final judgement. And knowing it was all your own choice would 'seal the deal' for our eternal death. Knowing you would never again see your Savior or feel God's love in your life. What a true torment! What a true tragedy!
I am not making light of the comments or the concept here. Hell is not as specific I believe except for certain views on it from old writers like Dante and others that may have steered our visions of hell one way or the other. What it WILL be is a place NO ONE wishes to go I am certain.
This is a really interesting discussion.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
My question is,
When is this judgment to occur? Christ said he would do a final judgment. When is this? When we die? Or when the world is done?
If it is when the world is done....where are we until that occurs. If the parable is correct (which I assume it is- the stories used as parables are truthful ones), then we have a place to wait then where those of us that have followed Christ will sit beside him and those that have not will wait a ways off.
It cannot be both ways. He said a final judgment will come- this tells me it hasn't happened yet. We are in waiting somewhere where people both good and evil are separated to await this FINAL judgment.
One can be 'in hell' here and in torment because of one's life and I believe that KNOWING we had a choice and we chose wrong and will be punished forever for it can be a burning hell. We speak about a person being 'consumed' with rage or passion, consumed with guilt. We make our own hell as it were.
Death or Eternal Death? Spiritual death as a term, is the absence of the Holy Spirit in our lives or the separation of the soul from God. So we CAN have a SPIRITUAL DEATH for eternity with God fully separating us from him. You have seen those that have spiritual death on the streets where Satan has taken firm hold. They are dead inside. This is what may very well happen after the final judgement. And knowing it was all your own choice would 'seal the deal' for our eternal death. Knowing you would never again see your Savior or feel God's love in your life. What a true torment! What a true tragedy!
I am not making light of the comments or the concept here. Hell is not as specific I believe except for certain views on it from old writers like Dante and others that may have steered our visions of hell one way or the other. What it WILL be is a place NO ONE wishes to go I am certain.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 presents the possibility that those who are dead in Christ are sleeping, awaiting the Resurrection.
13But I would not have
you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye
sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For
this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are
asleep.
16For the
Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall
rise first:
17Then
we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in
the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and likewise John 5:28
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And
shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of
life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't know that my interpretation here is correct, but these would seem to indicate that those who have died may possibly right now be "sleeping" in waiting for the Resurrection, followed by Judgement.
This is interesting. I'm using it to learn primarily since I know that most people use the Luke 16 parable as their definitive proof of an unending punishing fiery torment.
Luke 16 is a parable. It was actually a very popular parable in the popular culture at that time which is why it was used. Josephus mentions Jewish thought at the time paralleling some of this. There are many points that prove it is a parable and if it is not, then there are some real problems and paradoxes it presents. I noted that one poster here drew conclusions on where/how people waited for their final punishment since there are other verses in the Bible that would present issues if this wasn't. So he concluded somehow that this MUST be a true story since Jesus' parables were about true stories.
Anyway, the reason I'm not arguing much on here is because I really want to know the logic of people who believe this way. If you haven't figured out, I am a believer in conditional immortality and annihilation which by the way puts me in good company with some pretty famous Christians and theologians, some of whom you would be surprised at including for instance Cruden of the concordance fame. It's not that this doctrine is emotional, it just seems to make more sense from an exegetical standpoint. The topological arguments I hear from people actually seem quite circular and I wanted to hear some good arguments on both sides of the issue.
And I know Arfcom will deliver.
Originally Posted By WanderingOisin:
This is a really interesting discussion.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
My question is,
When is this judgment to occur? Christ said he would do a final judgment. When is this? When we die? Or when the world is done?
If it is when the world is done....where are we until that occurs. If the parable is correct (which I assume it is- the stories used as parables are truthful ones), then we have a place to wait then where those of us that have followed Christ will sit beside him and those that have not will wait a ways off.
It cannot be both ways. He said a final judgment will come- this tells me it hasn't happened yet. We are in waiting somewhere where people both good and evil are separated to await this FINAL judgment.
One can be 'in hell' here and in torment because of one's life and I believe that KNOWING we had a choice and we chose wrong and will be punished forever for it can be a burning hell. We speak about a person being 'consumed' with rage or passion, consumed with guilt. We make our own hell as it were.
Death or Eternal Death? Spiritual death as a term, is the absence of the Holy Spirit in our lives or the separation of the soul from God. So we CAN have a SPIRITUAL DEATH for eternity with God fully separating us from him. You have seen those that have spiritual death on the streets where Satan has taken firm hold. They are dead inside. This is what may very well happen after the final judgement. And knowing it was all your own choice would 'seal the deal' for our eternal death. Knowing you would never again see your Savior or feel God's love in your life. What a true torment! What a true tragedy!
I am not making light of the comments or the concept here. Hell is not as specific I believe except for certain views on it from old writers like Dante and others that may have steered our visions of hell one way or the other. What it WILL be is a place NO ONE wishes to go I am certain.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 presents the possibility that those who are dead in Christ are sleeping, awaiting the Resurrection.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and likewise John 5:28
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't know that my interpretation here is correct, but these would seem to indicate that those who have died may possibly right now be "sleeping" in waiting for the Resurrection, followed by Judgement.
The Bible is clear in saying that the soul of a believer enjoys heaven immediately upon physical death. For example, Jesus assured the repentant criminal who hung on one of the crosses next to him, "...today you will be with me in paradise." We know that he was referring to the man's soul and that his soul would be in heaven that very day. A few hours later, as Jesus gave his holy life to pay for the sin of the world, he cried out, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." Immediately, his own soul entered heaven (Luke 23:42-46:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him,
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The Death of Jesus
44 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. . Similarly, when the Apostle Paul was imprisoned for his faith in Christ and he thought about death, he expressed faith that as soon as his life would end, he, that is, his soul, would "be with Christ," and this would be "better by far" (Philippians 1:21-24:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.)
The Bible also teaches that on the Last Day or judgment day, when Jesus returns and raises the believer's body from the dead, and both body and soul together will begin to enjoy heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.).
It may be said to enter the joyful presence of the Lord two times, once without the body (after death) and once with the body (on judgment day).
God originally created us as whole persons, not as disembodied souls. The resurrection of the body can indeed be thought of as a reunion of body and soul—in other words, as a return to what God intended for us from the beginning, before sin entered the world and messed everything up. (Corinthians 15:35-58:But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. )
.
This is probably one reason why Scripture places relatively little emphasis on the state of the blessed dead between now and Judgment Day. It speaks much more often about the glorious eternity that God has planned for us after the resurrection.
.
.
Originally Posted By WanderingOisin:
This is a really interesting discussion.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
My question is,
When is this judgment to occur? Christ said he would do a final judgment. When is this? When we die? Or when the world is done?
If it is when the world is done....where are we until that occurs. If the parable is correct (which I assume it is- the stories used as parables are truthful ones), then we have a place to wait then where those of us that have followed Christ will sit beside him and those that have not will wait a ways off.
It cannot be both ways. He said a final judgment will come- this tells me it hasn't happened yet. We are in waiting somewhere where people both good and evil are separated to await this FINAL judgment.
One can be 'in hell' here and in torment because of one's life and I believe that KNOWING we had a choice and we chose wrong and will be punished forever for it can be a burning hell. We speak about a person being 'consumed' with rage or passion, consumed with guilt. We make our own hell as it were.
Death or Eternal Death? Spiritual death as a term, is the absence of the Holy Spirit in our lives or the separation of the soul from God. So we CAN have a SPIRITUAL DEATH for eternity with God fully separating us from him. You have seen those that have spiritual death on the streets where Satan has taken firm hold. They are dead inside. This is what may very well happen after the final judgement. And knowing it was all your own choice would 'seal the deal' for our eternal death. Knowing you would never again see your Savior or feel God's love in your life. What a true torment! What a true tragedy!
I am not making light of the comments or the concept here. Hell is not as specific I believe except for certain views on it from old writers like Dante and others that may have steered our visions of hell one way or the other. What it WILL be is a place NO ONE wishes to go I am certain.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 presents the possibility that those who are dead in Christ are sleeping, awaiting the Resurrection.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and likewise John 5:28
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't know that my interpretation here is correct, but these would seem to indicate that those who have died may possibly right now be "sleeping" in waiting for the Resurrection, followed by Judgement.
The opening of 1 Cor 15 lets us know where actual christians are after they have died:
15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
Note that Paul does not say what my preacher used to say: "looking down from heaven".
Originally Posted By realengr:
Have at it.
An observation thus far is that the passages cited all seem to be coming from the New Testament. What does the other 80% of the bilbe say?
When sin entered the world, all we got was:
Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
Originally Posted By WanderingOisin:
This is a really interesting discussion.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
My question is,
When is this judgment to occur? Christ said he would do a final judgment. When is this? When we die? Or when the world is done?
If it is when the world is done....where are we until that occurs. If the parable is correct (which I assume it is- the stories used as parables are truthful ones), then we have a place to wait then where those of us that have followed Christ will sit beside him and those that have not will wait a ways off.
It cannot be both ways. He said a final judgment will come- this tells me it hasn't happened yet. We are in waiting somewhere where people both good and evil are separated to await this FINAL judgment.
One can be 'in hell' here and in torment because of one's life and I believe that KNOWING we had a choice and we chose wrong and will be punished forever for it can be a burning hell. We speak about a person being 'consumed' with rage or passion, consumed with guilt. We make our own hell as it were.
Death or Eternal Death? Spiritual death as a term, is the absence of the Holy Spirit in our lives or the separation of the soul from God. So we CAN have a SPIRITUAL DEATH for eternity with God fully separating us from him. You have seen those that have spiritual death on the streets where Satan has taken firm hold. They are dead inside. This is what may very well happen after the final judgement. And knowing it was all your own choice would 'seal the deal' for our eternal death. Knowing you would never again see your Savior or feel God's love in your life. What a true torment! What a true tragedy!
I am not making light of the comments or the concept here. Hell is not as specific I believe except for certain views on it from old writers like Dante and others that may have steered our visions of hell one way or the other. What it WILL be is a place NO ONE wishes to go I am certain.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 presents the possibility that those who are dead in Christ are sleeping, awaiting the Resurrection.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and likewise John 5:28
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't know that my interpretation here is correct, but these would seem to indicate that those who have died may possibly right now be "sleeping" in waiting for the Resurrection, followed by Judgement.
The Bible is clear in saying that the soul of a believer enjoys heaven immediately upon physical death. For example, Jesus assured the repentant criminal who hung on one of the crosses next to him, "...today you will be with me in paradise." We know that he was referring to the man's soul and that his soul would be in heaven that very day. A few hours later, as Jesus gave his holy life to pay for the sin of the world, he cried out, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." Immediately, his own soul entered heaven (Luke 23:42-46:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him,
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The Death of Jesus
44 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. . Similarly, when the Apostle Paul was imprisoned for his faith in Christ and he thought about death, he expressed faith that as soon as his life would end, he, that is, his soul, would "be with Christ," and this would be "better by far" (Philippians 1:21-24:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.)
The Bible also teaches that on the Last Day or judgment day, when Jesus returns and raises the believer's body from the dead, and both body and soul together will begin to enjoy heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.).
It may be said to enter the joyful presence of the Lord two times, once without the body (after death) and once with the body (on judgment day).
God originally created us as whole persons, not as disembodied souls. The resurrection of the body can indeed be thought of as a reunion of body and soul—in other words, as a return to what God intended for us from the beginning, before sin entered the world and messed everything up. (Corinthians 15:35-58:But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
"Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 "O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. )
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This is probably one reason why Scripture places relatively little emphasis on the state of the blessed dead between now and Judgment Day. It speaks much more often about the glorious eternity that God has planned for us after the resurrection.
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I find this very interesting, and I'm glad you reminded me of those verses, particularly the example of the thief.
It seems to me that we may have inherited (from both Hellenistic Jews around the age of Christ and Catholicism) a view of the afterlife that is based more on Greek mythology. When Christ says
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” My question is, naturally, whether Paradise means "Heaven" in the sense of an everlasting dwelling place of comfort and worship, or whether it would be wise to examine our ideas about Heaven/Hell/Sheol in light of the Old Testament and pre-exilic Judaism. What constitutes "Being with Christ" immediately following death, or in the case of the story/parable in the OP, Abraham's Bosom? That is what I find most interesting.
If we go to be with Christ upon death, then what happens to the unrepentant? Do they immediately go to Hell, or do they sleep in waiting for Judgement? I'm interested in a Scriptural view on this.
I am not questioning so much the immortality of the soul, and what awaits the unrepentant sinner after the Judgement is something I wonder about, but I'm interested in a truly Biblical view of the afterlife between now and then, that's not simply based on our culture or tradition or loose interpretation.
As you say, the Lord has reason for not making this clearer, and I fear that we have a tendency to fill in the blanks where they don't need to be filled.
I think you have asked the right question. We are made in spirit and in body. Here they are together. The physical body is sleeping in the dust from whence it came. Where is this spirit when the body dies? It does not sleep for surely Christ does not sleep. after Christ's ressurrection:
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So tell me now that we are asleep after death? What is this prison then?
"He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God." (1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6)"
From another translation....I prefer the KJV myself and understand it, but to each his own.
When Christ "dismissed his spirit," commending Himself into the hands of the Father, the work of the cross having been finished, the spirit and soul of Jesus as well as that of His companion, the forgiven thief, went immediately into Paradise. He did not actually say 'heaven' though. He said ''paradise". Is this important? I think it is. You have yet to bring evidence of anything else.
The verse used in Luke 23:43 can be interpreted many ways and should not be used as a proof text. Unfortunately the bible was translated by men who already believed certain things and their bias sometimes shows through. The punctuation in Luke 23:43 was not inspired and if you move the comma over a little the entire phrase changes meaning. The fact is it should be moved over because Jesus did not enter the presence of the father yet. When he arose he said as much 'I am not yet ascended to my Father'. If paradise is in the presence of the Father we have a paradox. That is why the comma really should not be where it is. Otherwise Jesus lied to the thief. And we know he didn't do that.
I don't see doctrines being built or proofed on Luke 23:43.
Exegesis does indeed make everything in translating from the koine. Did you translate the verse yourself, or are you dependent upon someone else' translation? The biggest problem with translating from the greek is no punctuation and RUN ON sentences to the maximum! That's why I prefer translations of the Bible to be done by committee as opposed to an individual. The comma is in the right place. When Jesus said he had not yet gone to the father, he was referring to his resurrected BODY. We do not know when his soul rejoined his body, only that it did before his resurrection from the grave. We do know that he descended into Hell to proclaim victory, (not to suffer, that was completed on the cross) but we do not know how long he was there for his "victory lap" and head crushing.
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
Exegesis does indeed make everything in translating from the koine. Did you translate the verse yourself, or are you dependent upon someone else' translation? The biggest problem with translating from the greek is no punctuation and RUN ON sentences to the maximum! That's why I prefer translations of the Bible to be done by committee as opposed to an individual. The comma is in the right place. When Jesus said he had not yet gone to the father, he was referring to his resurrected BODY. We do not know when his soul rejoined his body, only that it did before his resurrection from the grave. We do know that he descended into Hell to proclaim victory, (not to suffer, that was completed on the cross) but we do not know how long he was there for his "victory lap" and head crushing.
The verse says nothing about it being his BODY. He said "I" quite clearly. You are putting quite a lot into that there. Where does it say in scripture that he only 'meant' his 'body'? Where is paradise? Committees of like minded men are many times the equivalent of one man.
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8)
But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. (Phil 1:22-23)
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:1-3)
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26)
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
I think you have asked the right question. We are made in spirit and in body. Here they are together. The physical body is sleeping in the dust from whence it came.
So when God pronounced his curse in Genesis:
3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”
You propose that He left out some very important and pertienent details such as the fact that you will have a whole separate existence outside of the body. Your proposal is alot like the serpent's, you don't really die, you live on.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
Where is this spirit when the body dies? It does not sleep for surely Christ does not sleep.
The spirit (i.e. the breath of life See Eccl 3:19, Gen 2:7, 6:17, 7:22) goes back to God who gave it regardless of weather it was formerly posessed by those who are accepted or rejected by God (Ecc 12:7).
Christ does not sleep because he was resurrected bodily.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
after Christ's ressurrection:
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So tell me now that we are asleep after death? What is this prison then?
Noting that the Spirit returns to God who gave it, why do you think it is literally in prison? Where is this prison described in scripture?
If there isn't any proof that this prison exists prior to his point in scripture, perhaps Peter is using a metaphor for the people who are in darkness as Isaiah was (Isa. 61:1).
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
When Christ "dismissed his spirit," commending Himself into the hands of the Father, the work of the cross having been finished, the spirit and soul of Jesus as well as that of His companion, the forgiven thief, went immediately into Paradise. He did not actually say 'heaven' though. He said ''paradise". Is this important? I think it is. You have yet to bring evidence of anything else.
Christ dismissed his spirit? I'm pretty sure he was nailed to a cross and died. He didn't dismiss his breath of life, he was killed.
"the spirit and soul of Jesus as well as that of His companion, the forgiven thief, went immediately into Paradise"
Where does it say that? Jesus said that the thief would be with him in paradise, not his spirit and soul, furthermore Jesus went to heaven bodily.
You have dissected my discussion but the original poster asked 'why' we think this way and you have not given your reasoning for the way YOU think it is except to dissect my part of the discussion. I was giving my opinion based on what evidence I read noting there are different actual words used in the scriptures and they described different things here. The KJV WAS created in one of your....''committees". The base of this version was created from another 'committee' (Nicene Councils) with many portions tossed out as they didn't want to deal with certain 'problem' scriptures and chapters that are included in the Hebrew texts- including some stories of Christ's youth. In following 'committees", the Sadducees and Pharisees had progressed a long way down the slippery slope. Very often in the past history only one Prophet was on earth. I believe Paul had seen what really what his Savior was and all that could be and understood well...describing exactly what he saw and knew.
"Heaven" is a particular word used and in a certain context.
"Paradise" is another word used in a different context and I believe the specific time and usage is specific to something else.
"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13) (my caps for emphasis)
When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven? This is not just an interesting sidelight or opinion. Now there are many many other questions I have that need answering. Where did Elijah go then? Christ clearly knew well the scriptures and he definitely knew who Elijah was. Did He lie? No
There are many Scriptures that tell us where a person goes when he"dies." The Scriptures say he "returns" from where he "came." So if he goes to Heaven, then he "came" from Heaven; if he goes to Hell, then he "came" from Hell. But Scriptures do not teach that people "RETURN" to heaven or hell when they die. Read these plain and simple verses that tell us exactly where man came from and where he goes when he dies:
"...till you return [Hebrew, shub] unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:17-19).
"Remember I pray you that as clay you did make me, and unto dust you will cause me to return" (Job 10:9)
"You cause man to return unto dust..." (Psa. 90:3).
"His spirit [the Hebrew word here is ruach, spirit, not neshamah, breath] goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146:3-4).
"...you gather in their spirit [Hebrew ruach, spirit] they expire [Hebrew gava, breathe out, gasp, expire], and return to their dust" (Psa. 104:29).
"For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; ... as the one dies, so dies the other; yea, they have all one spirit; and man has no preeminence above the beasts [in death]: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again" (Ecc. 3:18-21).
Will any seriously contend that BEASTS return to either heaven or hell when they die? Have we not just read in Ecc. 3:18-21 that "ALL [both men and beasts] go unto ONE PLACE?" And aren’t "heaven AND hell" TWO PLACES rather that one place?
Read also Hebrews 11:8-16, where it is mentioned that Abraham is waiting for a city to be built as his promise which is not at the time of Christ ready.
All of this speaks about a temporary loss of the body. That which is corruptible returns to the earth- what is not, waits 'elsewhere'. The body awaits the final judgement when both will be re united and will rise from the ground, the righteous first.
I have to think about these things ponder and pray. I find that they cause me questions as to what so vehemently believe and expound. Now, if they were in the grave and were sleeping in the dust waiting to be risen, would the Rich man be looking upward to the seat of Christ and see the Poor man, Lazarus, and ask to some personage that Lazarus be allowed to minister unto him? No. I question this. If Christ gave the parable and he is not a liar, then there is more than just Heaven or Hell.
This is what I believe and why based on my understanding of the scriptures.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven? This is not just an interesting sidelight or opinion. Now there are many many other questions I have that need answering. Where did Elijah go then? Christ clearly knew well the scriptures and he definitely knew who Elijah was. Did He lie? No
Enoch died without recieving the promise (Heb 11). Elijah was writing letters to the king of the southern kingdom after God moved him to his new location (2 Chron 21). Jesus knew his scriptures and didn't lie at all. We run into conflict when we insert our belief into a passage when it isn't there.
Furthermore, Jesus spoke in parables in order to reveal to some and conceal from others (Mark 4:10-12). Pursuing after God with all sincerity is how you end up on the proper side of that equation.
If you need clarity on the rich man and Lazarus, here is some food for thought:
Who would call out to father Abraham? (John 8:31-57)
Who was Jesus talking to? (Luke 16:14)
Why was he talking to them? (Luke 16:14)
What would purple dress indicate to the target audience?
What is the relationship of Lazarus to the target audience? (John 12:1-11)
Did Lazarus rising from the dead prompt the target audience to listen? (John 12:9-11)
If they didn't liste when one rose from the dead, what did they do instead? (John 12:9-11)
Since they didn't listen, and pursued another course of action, who's idea was it to take the other course of action? (John 18:12-14)
The Rich man had 5 brothers and an important father who also didn't listen. Any guesses who that may be? (
Hmmmmmm......)
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
I have to think about these things ponder and pray. I find that they cause me questions as to what so vehemently believe and expound. Now, if they were in the grave and were sleeping in the dust waiting to be risen, would the Rich man be looking upward to the seat of Christ and see the Poor man, Lazarus, and ask to some personage that Lazarus be allowed to minister unto him? No. I question this. If Christ gave the parable and he is not a liar, then there is more than just Heaven or Hell.
Or, he was speaking to somebody in particular and calling them out. And they were not happy about it.
Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven? This is not just an interesting sidelight or opinion. Now there are many many other questions I have that need answering. Where did Elijah go then? Christ clearly knew well the scriptures and he definitely knew who Elijah was. Did He lie? No
Enoch died without recieving the promise (Heb 11). Elijah was writing letters to the king of the southern kingdom after God moved him to his new location (2 Chron 21). Jesus knew his scriptures and didn't lie at all. We run into conflict when we insert our belief into a passage when it isn't there.
Furthermore, Jesus spoke in parables in order to reveal to some and conceal from others (Mark 4:10-12). Pursuing after God with all sincerity is how you end up on the proper side of that equation.
If you need clarity on the rich man and Lazarus, here is some food for thought:
Who would call out to father Abraham? (John 8:31-57)
Who was Jesus talking to? (Luke 16:14)
Why was he talking to them? (Luke 16:14)
What would purple dress indicate to the target audience?
What is the relationship of Lazarus to the target audience? (John 12:1-11)
Did Lazarus rising from the dead prompt the target audience to listen? (John 12:9-11)
If they didn't liste when one rose from the dead, what did they do instead? (John 12:9-11)
Since they didn't listen, and pursued another course of action, who's idea was it to take the other course of action? (John 18:12-14)
The Rich man had 5 brothers and an important father who also didn't listen. Any guesses who that may be? (
Hmmmmmm......)
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
I have to think about these things ponder and pray. I find that they cause me questions as to what so vehemently believe and expound. Now, if they were in the grave and were sleeping in the dust waiting to be risen, would the Rich man be looking upward to the seat of Christ and see the Poor man, Lazarus, and ask to some personage that Lazarus be allowed to minister unto him? No. I question this. If Christ gave the parable and he is not a liar, then there is more than just Heaven or Hell.
Or, he was speaking to somebody in particular and calling them out. And they were not happy about it.
I agree. There is a logical fault when one thinks that every parable in the bible is necessarily a true event. They are parables and there are parables in the old testament that could not be taken literally. This parable had a lot of detail in it to make it pointed at the Pharisees. The main point of the parable is even addressed in the scripture and it wasn't to give a topography of the afterlife. There are some pretty great theologians who have pointed out how silly things get when you take the detail in this parable and apply it to the afterlife rather than to the point at hand. And thus...my original question. I once again appreciate the insight into all of these verses on the afterlife and on the views on this parable. I've learned something from this discussion.
Originally Posted By realengr:
I often get into discussions on hell and this parable comes up. In my view and in many persons' views this is a parable not about hell, but about the relationship of the Pharisees and Jews and the covenants and also about the Gentiles.
I see an entire geography of hell created by many out of this one parable with people determining locations of the 'great gulf' and the 'bosom of Abraham' etc. This is not about proving whether this is a parable or not.
What I want to see is if you can prove Hell is this unendingly burning place that evil people go to without using this passage. That's your challenge for today. Remember: in your argument you cannot appeal to this passage as anything but a parable about the Jews and Gentiles and the changing covenants. In other words, you can't use it to talk about Hell.
Have at it.
If it is a parable why does Jesus use names? Would that not be a lie?
Read the parable in Mark 12:1-12, read Mark 13:28-29 ,Luke 6:47-49, Luke 7:41-42, Luke 8:5-8, Luke 8:11-15, Luke 8:16-18
All those parables start with, whosoever, a certain man, a sower, or in this parable.
Luke 16 He gives names of the rich and the beggar.
Whats going on in Matthew 27:50-53?
Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Acts 2:27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
The Holy One went to Abraham' bosom ,but saw no corruption.
I see an entire geography of hell created by many out of this one parable with people determining locations of the 'great gulf' and the 'bosom of Abraham' etc
Why did the saints get out of their graves at Jesus' death?
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Originally Posted By realengr:
I often get into discussions on hell and this parable comes up. In my view and in many persons' views this is a parable not about hell, but about the relationship of the Pharisees and Jews and the covenants and also about the Gentiles.
I see an entire geography of hell created by many out of this one parable with people determining locations of the 'great gulf' and the 'bosom of Abraham' etc. This is not about proving whether this is a parable or not.
What I want to see is if you can prove Hell is this unendingly burning place that evil people go to without using this passage. That's your challenge for today. Remember: in your argument you cannot appeal to this passage as anything but a parable about the Jews and Gentiles and the changing covenants. In other words, you can't use it to talk about Hell.
Have at it.
If it is a parable why does Jesus use names? Would that not be a lie?
Read the parable in Mark 12:1-12, read Mark 13:28-29 ,Luke 6:47-49, Luke 7:41-42, Luke 8:5-8, Luke 8:11-15, Luke 8:16-18
All those parables start with, whosoever, a certain man, a sower, or in this parable.
Luke 16 He gives names of the rich and the beggar.
Whats going on in Matthew 27:50-53?
Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Acts 2:27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
The Holy One went to Abraham' bosom ,but saw no corruption.
I see an entire geography of hell created by many out of this one parable with people determining locations of the 'great gulf' and the 'bosom of Abraham' etc
Why did the saints get out of their graves at Jesus' death?
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
So not using a proper name makes it ok in a parable and not a lie? It's a parable. A parable is a story to illustrate a point. Calling it a lie is pushing credibility. BTW, the rich man is not named. This parable starts out almost exactly in the same grammatical form as the other parables.
You are making huge inferences based on your prejudices. You are defining Abraham's bosom as Hades as prison. The poster up above went into great detail on why the names were used since an event was about to take place that involved a man named Lazarus. Did you read his post? Have you caught some of the conundrums posed when you take this as a literal account rather than as a parable? You have to use circular reasoning to say this was not a parable. Suddenly because one person is named in the parable (to make a point since Lazarus would soon be raised from the dead) it is a real event? This is poor theology and there are many great theologians who know the particulars of this parable and have thoroughly debunked this view. As to the saints. They were sleeping in their graves. The verse says that. If you believe in the immortality of the soul and this hades topography you can make certain assumptions but there is no verse in the bible that says you have an immortal soul and the bible is quite clear even in these verses that the saints were asleep. BTW, you do realize that verse 19 can be used to support Christian universalism if you interpret it the way you are? The parable had many symbols in it. The rich man symbolized Judah and when Lazarus was raised later (one being raised from the dead) the Pharisees did not believe just as Christ noted. That was one of the points of the parable. If Jesus was making an instructional story about hell and its topography would he not have just did that instead of making the point of the parable later? Do you really think that a drop of water would cool this guy's tongue in hell? Are all the saints laying against Abraham's bosom? He must have a huge chest. And in this parable this is not talking a place when it refers to the bosom. It is talking Abraham. It is a symbol, a story.
Please read Genghis' very clear analysis from the scripture (and not what you were taught in Sunday School) on what was really going on. People are leaving this spurious interpretation of these verses behind because of common sense and an ability to leave behind their prejudices. Dr. David Reagan of Lamb and Lion ministries studied this and left this behind also.
This is a parable about unbelief and spiritual pride of the Pharisees, not hell. Jesus even SAID that in his conclusion. If they don't believe in Moses and the Prophets they will not believe even if one is raised from the dead. It was also a prophecy which was about to be fulfilled using a man named Lazarus.
But I digress into argument. Once again, I have new insight into this doctrine and the misuse of this parable to prove a point.
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
If it is a parable why does Jesus use names? Would that not be a lie?
Read the parable in Mark 12:1-12, read Mark 13:28-29 ,Luke 6:47-49, Luke 7:41-42, Luke 8:5-8, Luke 8:11-15, Luke 8:16-18
All those parables start with, whosoever, a certain man, a sower, or in this parable.
Luke 16 He gives names of the rich and the beggar.
Just for clarification, he doesn't give the name of the rich man but it is obvious who he is talking about. This is not a new feature in parables. If you read the parable you cite in Mark 12, read that last verse, they knew who Jesus was talking about.
The parable would be a lie if you are taking parables face vaule. One must remember the point of a parable, to reveal to some and conceal from others (Mark 4:10-20 specifically verse 12).
The fact that he mentioned Lazarus only emphasizes the point of who he is talking to and about, because Lazarus did rise from the dead, and his target audience did not believe. And if I was Lazarus and went from whatever place you are thiking of back to this sin filled planet, I'd be upset.
If you take this parable literally, I have some questions:
-where is Abraham's bosom described in scripture?
-What happened to the people who died before Abraham and his bosom existed?
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Whats going on in Matthew 27:50-53?
Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Looks like a token fulfillment of the coming resurrection. People who were asleep in the grave got up out of their graves (rather than coming from heaven) and testified that Jesus was the son of God. Do you see something I am not seeing?
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Matthew 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus did go to the tomb. Do you think he went some place else?
Are you saying that between Acts 13:29 and Acts 13:30 he went some place that Luke forgot to mention?
Are you saying that there is a few more steps in 1 Thess 4:14 than are described?
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Acts 2:27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
The Holy One went to Abraham' bosom ,but saw no corruption.
He didn't rot in the grave as David is doing as Peter explains in Acts 2:31 (For emphasis, it is explained again in Acts 13:34-36). Note that David is rotting in the grave, not somewhere else.
Did you just make the part about going to Abraham's bosom up? Where does it say he went to Abraham's bosom?
Why did the saints get out of their graves at Jesus' death?
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
After death comes the judgement, not death, more witnessing and another opportunity to repent, and then judgment. What you are describing is contrary to fundamental teaching of the bible.
The law imprisoned everyone under it (Galatians 3:22). Are you talking about some other prison? If you are, where is this prison described?
[Edit: I see that realeng beat me to much of this, I got sidetracked with a couple of meetings in the middle of posting]
the rich man is not named. This parable starts out almost exactly in the same grammatical form as the other parables.
Lazarus is, what other parable has a names, "And he cried and said, Father Abraham" not he cried, to a certain man.
Luke 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a
certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
* Abraham's bosom - is Jewish for Paradise below
Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Who's He? Where he descended to?
Ya'll do realize the Bible was written around 2000 years ago by Jews, you may have to read in to it, you know read whole books use a dictionary, a little more then a chapter or two, here and there, more then a verse are two here in there. Stop relying on the pulpit.
Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. ***************when Jesus died He went to Abraham's bosom where he released the saints
Abraham's bosom is now EMPTY
Hebrews 2:14-15
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Revelation 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades
Revelation 9:1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit ******** This is when satan gets the key back.
[blue]Psalm 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. ?????
sony,
The words for Sheol, Hades, etc. are often the same word in Greek/hebrew. Most of the time you can use the word 'grave'. As is the case in the verse you quoted. When you do this (rightly saying 'grave'.)...suddenly things appear different. You are changing definitions at will when context dictates Sheol is the grave or state of death. If you like do a cross reference in your concordance and see how many times Sheol is translated as grave, hell, sheol, etc. Same word. Soul is another word like this. It is variously called several things in the English text, yet it is the same hebrew word. How about that?
Abraham's bosom is not paradise. In the parable it is actually Abraham's chest from the context, a completely symbolic meaning and as i noted if all the dead go to Abraham's bosom as you noted in the parable, several thousand or million people at the time were pressed against the patriarch's chest. Read the parable again. Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, literally.
We are just going to go around and around on this. The plain word of scripture is explicit, yet you keep saying things are this and that rather than what they plainly state. I'm not talking about disagreement on Hebrew/Greek to english but entirely different meanings from context. It's poor exegetically and whether you like theologians or not, this has been thoroughly hammered by many on both sides. I think that it may be so surprising for you and others to abandon this unworkable topography of hell that there has to be some cognitive dissonance going on. Please explain how Abraham is fitting all of those souls on his chest. That is what you are really saying here.
So much of what people espouse today is not from the Bible but from Greek mythological influence on the medieval church, John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and Dante's Inferno. Doctrines incorporated into the Catholic church were carried along by Protestant denominations when they split off. And the errors continue. You really think Satan rules hell (your reference to the key)? There is no scriptural reference to it.
As to reading the whole book. You talk about the new testament yet you yourself said you could only remember 4 of the 10 commandments. I have significant amounts of the bible memorized. If you like I can rattle the decalogue off to you. I assure you, I know this Book. Without knowing and understanding the Old Testament you will NEVER understand the New Testament. The old testament gives an interesting view on subjects like this. Did you know there is almost no indication of this concept of immortal soul and unending torment mentioned in the old testament?
Get away from that KJV too. You will find it is replete with multiple words used when only one Greek word is used in the text. Grave is one of those words.
Jesus descended into the grave. It's that simple and it's what the text actually says. Anything else is reading too much into it. It's obvious that you are not reading our posts and references here because you are repeating things we have answered quite clearly. The references given by Genghis are very good yet they remain unanswered. You do know that Jesus is here repeating what was a popular parable of the time and he changed a few things. Do you realize the implication of that statement? Do you think he was lying because he took what was a known fable and embellished it to teach another point? Yet you and others build an entire doctrinal belief out of . While I am not a big fan of using extrabiblical sources when studying the Bible, I do believe that historical references are important and can give insight.
We are just going to go round and round on this.
Originally Posted By realengr:
sony,
The words for Sheol, Hades, etc. are often the same word in Greek/hebrew. Most of the time you can use the word 'grave'. As is the case in the verse you quoted. When you do this (rightly saying 'grave'....suddenly things appear different. You are changing definitions at will when context dictates Sheol is the grave or state of death. If you like do a cross reference in your concordance and see how many times Sheol is translated as grave, hell, sheol, etc. Same word.
Abraham's bosom is not paradise. In the parable it is actually Abraham's chest from the context, a completely symbolic meaning and as i noted if all the dead go to Abraham's bosom as you noted in the parable, several thousand or million people at the time were pressed against the patriarch's chest. Read the parable again. Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, literally.
We are just going to go around and around on this. The plain word of scripture is explicit, yet you keep saying things are this and that rather than what they plainly state. I'm not talking about disagreement on Hebrew/Greek to english but entirely different meanings from context. It's poor exegetically and whether you like theologians or not, this has been thoroughly hammered by many on both sides. I think that it may be so surprising for you and others to abandon this unworkable topography of hell that there has to be some cognitive dissonance going on. Please explain how Abraham is fitting all of those souls on his chest. That is what you are really saying here.
Get away from that KJV too. You will find it is replete with multiple words used when only one Greek word is used in the text. Grave is one of those words.
Jesus descended into the grave. It's that simple and it's what the text actually says. It's obvious that you are not reading our posts and references here because you are repeating things we have answered quite clearly. The references given by Genghis are very good yet they remain unanswered. You do know that Jesus is here repeating what was a popular parable of the time and he changed a few things. Do you realize the implication of that statement? Do you think he was lying because he took what was a known fable and embellished it to teach another point? Yet you and others build an entire doctrinal belief out of . While I am not a big fan of using extrabiblical sources when studying the Bible, I do believe that historical references are important and can give insight.
We are just going to go round and round on this.
I'm going to school for this I know the issues with KJV that's way I don't rely it solely, I gets my study on. And even my texts books line up with what I'm saying, while that's not saying much, I guess we just disagree on this one.
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Originally Posted By realengr:
sony,
The words for Sheol, Hades, etc. are often the same word in Greek/hebrew. Most of the time you can use the word 'grave'. As is the case in the verse you quoted. When you do this (rightly saying 'grave'....suddenly things appear different. You are changing definitions at will when context dictates Sheol is the grave or state of death. If you like do a cross reference in your concordance and see how many times Sheol is translated as grave, hell, sheol, etc. Same word.
Abraham's bosom is not paradise. In the parable it is actually Abraham's chest from the context, a completely symbolic meaning and as i noted if all the dead go to Abraham's bosom as you noted in the parable, several thousand or million people at the time were pressed against the patriarch's chest. Read the parable again. Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, literally.
We are just going to go around and around on this. The plain word of scripture is explicit, yet you keep saying things are this and that rather than what they plainly state. I'm not talking about disagreement on Hebrew/Greek to english but entirely different meanings from context. It's poor exegetically and whether you like theologians or not, this has been thoroughly hammered by many on both sides. I think that it may be so surprising for you and others to abandon this unworkable topography of hell that there has to be some cognitive dissonance going on. Please explain how Abraham is fitting all of those souls on his chest. That is what you are really saying here.
Get away from that KJV too. You will find it is replete with multiple words used when only one Greek word is used in the text. Grave is one of those words.
Jesus descended into the grave. It's that simple and it's what the text actually says. It's obvious that you are not reading our posts and references here because you are repeating things we have answered quite clearly. The references given by Genghis are very good yet they remain unanswered. You do know that Jesus is here repeating what was a popular parable of the time and he changed a few things. Do you realize the implication of that statement? Do you think he was lying because he took what was a known fable and embellished it to teach another point? Yet you and others build an entire doctrinal belief out of . While I am not a big fan of using extrabiblical sources when studying the Bible, I do believe that historical references are important and can give insight.
We are just going to go round and round on this.
I'm going to school for this I know the issues with KJV that's way I don't rely it solely, I gets my study on. And even my texts books line up with what I'm saying, while that's not saying much, I guess we just disagree on this one.
Get a concordance. check the words. Then question your textbooks. If your books are written by people that already have their minds made up they serve only as echo chambers.
Originally Posted By realengr:
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Originally Posted By realengr:
sony,
The words for Sheol, Hades, etc. are often the same word in Greek/hebrew. Most of the time you can use the word 'grave'. As is the case in the verse you quoted. When you do this (rightly saying 'grave'....suddenly things appear different. You are changing definitions at will when context dictates Sheol is the grave or state of death. If you like do a cross reference in your concordance and see how many times Sheol is translated as grave, hell, sheol, etc. Same word.
Abraham's bosom is not paradise. In the parable it is actually Abraham's chest from the context, a completely symbolic meaning and as i noted if all the dead go to Abraham's bosom as you noted in the parable, several thousand or million people at the time were pressed against the patriarch's chest. Read the parable again. Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, literally.
We are just going to go around and around on this. The plain word of scripture is explicit, yet you keep saying things are this and that rather than what they plainly state. I'm not talking about disagreement on Hebrew/Greek to english but entirely different meanings from context. It's poor exegetically and whether you like theologians or not, this has been thoroughly hammered by many on both sides. I think that it may be so surprising for you and others to abandon this unworkable topography of hell that there has to be some cognitive dissonance going on. Please explain how Abraham is fitting all of those souls on his chest. That is what you are really saying here.
Get away from that KJV too. You will find it is replete with multiple words used when only one Greek word is used in the text. Grave is one of those words.
Jesus descended into the grave. It's that simple and it's what the text actually says. It's obvious that you are not reading our posts and references here because you are repeating things we have answered quite clearly. The references given by Genghis are very good yet they remain unanswered. You do know that Jesus is here repeating what was a popular parable of the time and he changed a few things. Do you realize the implication of that statement? Do you think he was lying because he took what was a known fable and embellished it to teach another point? Yet you and others build an entire doctrinal belief out of . While I am not a big fan of using extrabiblical sources when studying the Bible, I do believe that historical references are important and can give insight.
We are just going to go round and round on this.
I'm going to school for this I know the issues with KJV that's way I don't rely it solely, I gets my study on. And even my texts books line up with what I'm saying, while that's not saying much, I guess we just disagree on this one.
Get a concordance. check the words. Then question your textbooks. If your books are written by people that already have their minds made up they serve only as echo chambers.
You don't think I'll put my soul on the line by trusting textbooks, do you?
I have 3 concordances, a couple of study Bibles, the textbooks, and my mom has a bunch of books and study material that I have access to.
I really don't like reading anything ,but the Bible with a dictionary. But if I want my doctorate.
