How do Christrian members of the miliatary reconcile their actions regarding the sixth commandment?

"Thou shall not murder."

Easy...they don't commit murder.

I believe you are reading it too literally. The context of it should be read as Thou shall not murder.

If you read it literally then would it not then be a sin to use deadly force in the exercise self-defense?

You spelled 'military' wrong...

It speaks of murder. If it were to be held true to all killing, then we would not be able to eat animals, and the Israelites would not have been able to offer sacrifices to the Lord. Self defense is justified in scriptures, as is going to war.

In Hebrew the original word is "ratsach", which means criminal homicide, or to lie in wait, cold blooded murder. In the Greek, it is "phoneuo", or "phoneuos", which means basically the same thing. There is also a provision for punishment for a murderer called "Ga' al", which means the victims next of kin execute the murderer. Fighting for you're country, especially if you are protecting you nation's right to worship is never murder. Would you rather have us overrun by someone that would take from us our freedoms? Of course not, it isn't sensible to us, and it isn't to God either. Pretty much everything regarding laws in the Bible are basically common sense.

Simply, they don't murder.

I don't really see any difference between killing and murder regarding this particular debate.
I'm sure the person who launched the missile that hit the civilians, will claim there is a big difference and that they didn't murder anyone.
At that point the logical debate ends for me.
If your basic morality is not solid enough to stand on it's own merits without relying on semantics and connotation cartwheels then that is someone you cannot have an intelligent discussion with.

I do see a big difference between killing and murder as follows:
- an enemy force is invading your (undisputed) homeland. They want to exterminate you and your family and steal your rice bowl. As an individual or as part of a militia, the invaders are forcing you to (possibly) kill them. My understanding of Christianity tells me that this situation is regrettable but necessary, in the eyes of God.
- the invaders are there to murder. No pearly white gates for them.

Depending on your role in the armed forces, I think a Christian CAN sleep soundly with his conscience intact.
Example: Navy rescue swimmers or medical personnel

Be it killing or murder, there are some interesting things in the Bible:

Psalms 11:5 The soul of the Lord hates...those who love violence

Psalms 68:30 Scatter the nations who delight in war.

Psalms 140:1-2 Protect me from the violent who...stir up wars continually

Proverbs 13:2 The unfaithful have a craving for violence.

Micah 4:3 Nations will not train for war anymore.

John 16:2 Anyone who kills you thinks he is offering service to God ...because they have not known the Father

Proverbs 28:17: A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.

Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Proverbs 6:16-17 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood

So you had the answer to your question when you asked it?

Half of those verses don't neccesarily apply to soldiers, ie craving violence, guile, and innocent blood. And a few are shown out of context.

ETA: And if you believe that the true role of the military is against God's commandments, why would being a rescue swimmer in an evil entity be good in God's eyes? You're still benefitting an organization that (in your beliefs) is disobeying God.

Killing is not always murder.

Your comprehension is very poor.

Killing someone in war is not murder, and it's not a "semantic" difference, nor a "connotation cartwheel", whatever that is.

We don't "shed innocent blood", that's not in our charter.

We don't "stir up wars continually", we're defending our country and our people. Did you forget that over three thousand of our citizens were murdered that one day in 2001? I didn't.

We don't "delight in war", we engage in it because we have to.

We don't "slay our neighbour with guile", we're killing terrorists –– you know, people who hold as their life goal to kill innocents.

You get the picture.

That's a very good point –– even a noncombatant (medic, etc) still supports an organization that "kills". So even a tech like me would be guilty of murder if the OP's twisted theology were correct.

That's called trolling around these parts. Nothing to see here.....

I got a B in logic....

So for every call for fire that went through my retrans station, I figure I get a little smidgen of credit.

FIFY.

Nope.
It came to me while I was researching the topic.

I don't believe the true role of the military is against God's commandments.
As I tried to say above, if the military action is to protect the homeland against an invading aggressor, then I don't see how any Christian could take issue.

So you are seriously saying that no one has ever been murdered during a war?
If that's the case whats the point of the International Criminal Court in The Hague?

Did I say that?

No, I did not.

We prosecute people who murder, as the criminals they are.

Killing in the course of war, is not murder.

Sorry bub, but how do you explain the Lord commanding his people to fight....and invade other countries.

Nice try though!

The existence of that court implies there is a strong divide between murder and combat. You just torpedoed your entire argument.

Here's the problem I have with that.
Apparently, killing in the course of war only becomes murder if you caught.
Examples:
The British Paras - Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland
1st battalion, 20th infantry, 11th infantry brigade, - My Lai Massacre in Vietnam

This, apparently, provides a convenient 'out' of moral responsibility.
If the killer/murderer believes that their actions are in the course of war, then on their moral compass, they are killing and not murdering.
If they don't believe this, they just need to not get caught.
This is turning into a discussion I didn't want to have.

If the taking of human life can be justified by Christians, as killing in the course of war and so is not even in the same ballpark as murder, then that's the answer I was looking for.
Does anyone have any other points to make other than 'it's war, so it's not murder, so I am ready to face my creator with my head held high and proud' ?

Where does it say that?

I am ready to face my creator with my head held high and proud?

Every time I fired my weapon over there, it was in the defense of the lives of my friends and fellow soldiers. I have not a single regret. So yes.

All through the Old Testament bud. You should try reading it sometime.

"caught"? Well, to be quite blunt, I hold myself to a far higher standard than that, and so does everyone I know, Christian or otherwise. That's a basic part of being in the military –– doing the right thing.

The Book of Joshua is an excellent read

If you're looking to meet God with your head held high your out of luck. You best be on your knees and bowing down.

I'm going to meet my God knowing that although I am sinful, in His eyes I am perfect because of what His Son did for me. Although I do not deserve it, I CAN look Him in the eye. Whether I have the guts to do so...

Can you post a current picture of your bumper please?

I plan to be on my knees and humbled before Him when I meet Him, since it is by His grace that I as an unworthy person have been given the opportunity to live forever in Heaven. God is so perfect, that we will be in such awe of Him that we will not be able to stand up and be proud in front of him. All knees shall bend and all heads shall bow when they meet Him.

Luke 22:36

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip:and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

There sure are! But you have obviously never read the Bible.

Try it sometime. It's a tough slog, but you'll be amazed how much you'll learn.

Out of context in light of the topic.

We can make the Bible advocate anything if we do that. "Judas hanged himself. Go and do likewise."

It says thou shal not murder. If it really was just "thou shalt not kill" then we'd all starve to death. EVERYTHING we eat "dies" and thus is "killed" by us eating it....even vegetables. If we are instructed to "not kill", and it does not say "people" after "kill", then it would seem to mean we can't cause ANYTHING to die. OBviously this isn't the case. Even Jesus probably killed SOMETHING.

MURDER, on the other hand, is specific to killing of humans, and also even more specifically.. UNJUST killing of humans...

It's also important to not be fighting on the wrong side.

If I join the USSR Army, and go out and round up civilians in other countries...and whole sale slaughter them just because they refuse to bow to the god of communism... Uhh yes, that would be murder. Fighting in a war, does not get you off... the cause must also be just. A man who joins the the Nazi Regime, for instance, would be a murderer... since he is fighting for an evil regime. A man fighting for the French resistance, the British Army, or the US Army... however, would not be a murderer.

Hmmm...."Thou shall not commit adultery"? Depending on who you listen to (catholic church for one) the 6th commandment is either 'Thou shall not kill" or "thou shall not commit adultery" I am assuming you meant the kill verse. The 10 commandments are written in 2 different places- Exodus and Deuteronomy.

I covered part of this in another thread but I will bring part of it in here.

The Hebrew version of the Old Testament states this verse as "Thou shall not commit murder". This is consistent with Old and New Testament writings on self defense and war. If your heart is right and you are at war with another, and God is with thee in your endeavor, then there is no real problem if you are following God's will. The problem comes in determining God's will.

Now if you are defending your territory against an invader or there is an intruder in your home intent on harm for you or your family, then this is the self defense part of this. It would be unfortunate for the intruder to die, for as we are God fearing people and this would sadden us but God clearly would rather that they die in their sin than they do further sin or harm to the Body of Christ (his people).

Here in the USA we go to the defense of those in need. Sometimes we help the wrong side based on decisions made behind closed doors. I believe this is part of the "secret combinations" that are mentioned in the bible. This is just my personal thoughts and feelings on it. There are other times that we clearly must act or an entire peoples must be lost (Kosovo). Standing by while innocents perish is also a sin ..of inaction. As instruments of God's will, we must do what we are commanded and also stand up for right. If we have such a conscience that we cannot take another life, then we must not go to war.

Romans 13:1-13 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

You must then go to war without hate as we do not hate the sinner but hate his actions. When you do this it becomes just.

There are indeed variations in the numbering of the commandments, but no matter how they are numbered, they're all there in each of the variations.

I don't think killing in the course of combat is murder, if the war is just. Example: when the Nazis started rampaging through Europe, that was unjust. When the allies came and destroyed the Nazi regime, that was just. The real issue here is that we, the American public, have to be very careful about when we enter a war to make sure we're doing the just thing.

This. All else being equal...If you only fire your weapon out of fear for your own life or the life of a fellow soldier, or an innocent, there is nothing to fear.

A lot of positions in todays Army are not front line either. So you can do things and probably not ever have to shoot at somebody.

The first thought that crossed my mind was the same way the Jews do . . .

I take it this thread isn't about adultery?

Yep. This thread is lame.

What he is saying is that collateral damage, while tragic, is the same as intentional murder. Somehow he thinks he is intellectually superior. So far I've seen no evidence of that.

Also remember the 10 commandments where given to us to prove that we cant follow rules to get to heaven. NO human can follow the 10 commandments their entire life and live without sin... You need Christ.

If your in the .mil... Id bet God put you there for a reason.

Are we not God's Warriors ?

Let me help out on the subject of "Collateral Damage".

A child walks directly into the path of an oncoming car from between several vehicles and is killed. He was traveling the speed limit and tried to avoid hitting the child.

Is the driver a murderer?

Our legal system says NO.

Our legal system is based on 10 Commandments and interpreted law.

This is considered to be accidental death- a death from unintentional circumstances or not purposefully caused.
The question then is..

"Were the deaths from collateral damage intended?"

If "yes"...then this is muder.

If "no"...then it is not...it is an accident and therefore not murder. Sometimes people are where they should not be and they are killed in war especially if they are in an urban setting. In the old days, you blew up a building with a bomb dropped on on that block. We now have smart bombs and missiles that can be aimed and hit pretty much where they are aimed. Instead of a whole block we hit the building. Personally, if someone was bombing my city...I would leave it.

Copyright © 1996 - 2013 :: AR15.Com LLC :: All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.