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Question for the Atheist
9/14/2011 11:18:57 PM
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
9/14/2011 11:23:45 PM
is this a question or are you expressing your views???
9/14/2011 11:35:52 PM
I'm not an atheist. Religion is only one kind of morality (the divine command theory). Ther are other forms of ethics/morality, the most common would be social acceptance. You are thinking of an ethical egoism situation. Unfortunately, there are way too many people that fall into this category.
9/15/2011 12:08:41 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
I don't really see a cohesive question here, but rather a mea culpa for atheists to explain their "wretchedness". You make the (wrong) assumption that the atheist's only pursuit is power, money, & sex. On what do you base that assumption ? You also make the assumption Nothing matters to atheists including morality.
Who's morality? Your gods morality?
The same god that commanded the killing of the Canaanites ? The same god that says that a man who rapes a woman must marry her, essentially making the WOMAN marry her attacker ? The god that says that it is ok to have slaves, & beat them & your wife (both property) to keep them in line ? That moral, good & merciful god ? Would you consider those things moral & just ? & don't give me some BS about we can not understand the mind of god. If a god has a moral policy that includes genocide, slavery, & crap like that he is no god that I would worship.
Morailty is nothing more than socialization of man. We decide what is good based on what is good for society. Killing other members of society upsets the natural balance of things, creates fear, & is not good for the society as a whole. At one time we needed to make up a god for that, because people couldn't or wouldn't do it on their own.
If you need a god to tell you what is right or wrong, & to keep you from doing "wretched" things, then I see a problem with that.
9/15/2011 5:56:58 AM
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
I don't really see a cohesive question here, but rather a mea culpa for atheists to explain their "wretchedness". You make the (wrong) assumption that the atheist's only pursuit is power, money, & sex. On what do you base that assumption ? You also make the assumption Nothing matters to atheists including morality.
Who's morality? Your gods morality?
The same god that commanded the killing of the Canaanites ? The same god that says that a man who rapes a woman must marry her, essentially making the WOMAN marry her attacker ? The god that says that it is ok to have slaves, & beat them & your wife (both property) to keep them in line ? That moral, good & merciful god ? Would you consider those things moral & just ? & don't give me some BS about we can not understand the mind of god. If a god has a moral policy that includes genocide, slavery, & crap like that he is no god that I would worship.
Morailty is nothing more than socialization of man. We decide what is good based on what is good for society. Killing other members of society upsets the natural balance of things, creates fear, & is not good for the society as a whole. At one time we needed to make up a god for that, because people couldn't or wouldn't do it on their own.
If you need a god to tell you what is right or wrong, & to keep you from doing "wretched" things, then I see a problem with that.
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
I don't really see a cohesive question here, but rather a mea culpa for atheists to explain their "wretchedness". You make the (wrong) assumption that the atheist's only pursuit is power, money, & sex. On what do you base that assumption ? You also make the assumption Nothing matters to atheists including morality.
Who's morality? Your gods morality?
The same god that commanded the killing of the Canaanites ? The same god that says that a man who rapes a woman must marry her, essentially making the WOMAN marry her attacker ? The god that says that it is ok to have slaves, & beat them & your wife (both property) to keep them in line ? That moral, good & merciful god ? Would you consider those things moral & just ? & don't give me some BS about we can not understand the mind of god. If a god has a moral policy that includes genocide, slavery, & crap like that he is no god that I would worship.
Morailty is nothing more than socialization of man. We decide what is good based on what is good for society. Killing other members of society upsets the natural balance of things, creates fear, & is not good for the society as a whole. At one time we needed to make up a god for that, because people couldn't or wouldn't do it on their own.
If you need a god to tell you what is right or wrong, & to keep you from doing "wretched" things, then I see a problem with that.
I really like the way they use GOD to make a man attack her! god sopposed to right the 10 commandments! on that shal not kill and jesus says in the bible against murdure what does this tell you.
9/15/2011 7:26:12 AM
The Bible is an obvious collection of childrens stories that were intended to teach them life lessons and right from wrong.
9/15/2011 10:38:13 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
That's an easy one. Once the existence of gods is established to explain the world and to calm fears, the next step is the need for authority. Who can speak for these gods? What do they want? That calls for a priesthood. And how does the priesthood establish authority? Social control. Social control means sacrifices, taboos, and control of social institutions, and even political power. You see it every culture, and every religion. Such things can have a secular basis too, but socially, religion is more powerful, becuase it is cloaked in the authority of deities. You can argue with secular law and customs through reason, but religious law and custom is not so easily opposed, since those who enforce allegedly do so in the name of gods.
This is cultural anthropology 101 stuff.
9/15/2011 6:01:37 PM
It is a good question and one that the knee-jerk armchair philosophers that come in here to take shots won't be prepared to answer because it requires real thought.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
9/15/2011 11:10:06 PM
The question is simple. If God is made up to sooth mans basic questions, why wouldn't that god be one of fun and games? I said "we" when pointing out our pursuit of carnal pleasures and the fact that if we made up a god it would more likely be like that. You turned it into an attack of Atheists. Given I believe in God, I would think I could be far worse than an atheist. Satan doesn't need to spend time with the atheist.
9/15/2011 11:23:50 PM
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
That's an easy one. Once the existence of gods is established to explain the world and to calm fears, the next step is the need for authority. Who can speak for these gods? What do they want? That calls for a priesthood. And how does the priesthood establish authority? Social control. Social control means sacrifices, taboos, and control of social institutions, and even political power. You see it every culture, and every religion. Such things can have a secular basis too, but socially, religion is more powerful, becuase it is cloaked in the authority of deities. You can argue with secular law and customs through reason, but religious law and custom is not so easily opposed, since those who enforce allegedly do so in the name of gods.
This is cultural anthropology 101 stuff.
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
That's an easy one. Once the existence of gods is established to explain the world and to calm fears, the next step is the need for authority. Who can speak for these gods? What do they want? That calls for a priesthood. And how does the priesthood establish authority? Social control. Social control means sacrifices, taboos, and control of social institutions, and even political power. You see it every culture, and every religion. Such things can have a secular basis too, but socially, religion is more powerful, becuase it is cloaked in the authority of deities. You can argue with secular law and customs through reason, but religious law and custom is not so easily opposed, since those who enforce allegedly do so in the name of gods.
This is cultural anthropology 101 stuff.
Ok why the existence of a god of rules that are considered right, and not a god who says party away? If man makes the rules, you can't logically conclude the need for authority. Given the freedom they would deem rules unnecessary. Which is also illogical, because it's a rule. Get it yet? You have no basis other than history to make that claim. And I would argue a God given history that established all we have. Also given your logic, Hitler and the like are just as good as anyone elses. The leaders and societal controls deemed what they did just fine. Why would that be viewed as bad, it's just another world view. Don't you think they'd have more power and control if the said "party on and screw the pooch". It is not logical to limit mans desires based on what man wants.
9/15/2011 11:31:30 PM
Originally Posted By WatchingWaiting:
It is a good question and one that the knee-jerk armchair philosophers that come in here to take shots won't be prepared to answer because it requires real thought.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
It is a good question and one that the knee-jerk armchair philosophers that come in here to take shots won't be prepared to answer because it requires real thought.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
Again, these do not seem to be the qualities of an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving god. Killing of innocents & non believers, outright genocide. Believe what you want, but these are not the actions of a god worthy of my devotion.
9/15/2011 11:34:32 PM
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
I don't really see a cohesive question here, but rather a mea culpa for atheists to explain their "wretchedness". You make the (wrong) assumption that the atheist's only pursuit is power, money, & sex. On what do you base that assumption ? You also make the assumption Nothing matters to atheists including morality.
Who's morality? Your gods morality?
The same god that commanded the killing of the Canaanites ? The same god that says that a man who rapes a woman must marry her, essentially making the WOMAN marry her attacker ? The god that says that it is ok to have slaves, & beat them & your wife (both property) to keep them in line ? That moral, good & merciful god ? Would you consider those things moral & just ? & don't give me some BS about we can not understand the mind of god. If a god has a moral policy that includes genocide, slavery, & crap like that he is no god that I would worship.
Morailty is nothing more than socialization of man. We decide what is good based on what is good for society. Killing other members of society upsets the natural balance of things, creates fear, & is not good for the society as a whole. At one time we needed to make up a god for that, because people couldn't or wouldn't do it on their own.
If you need a god to tell you what is right or wrong, & to keep you from doing "wretched" things, then I see a problem with that.
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
I don't really see a cohesive question here, but rather a mea culpa for atheists to explain their "wretchedness". You make the (wrong) assumption that the atheist's only pursuit is power, money, & sex. On what do you base that assumption ? You also make the assumption Nothing matters to atheists including morality.
Who's morality? Your gods morality?
The same god that commanded the killing of the Canaanites ? The same god that says that a man who rapes a woman must marry her, essentially making the WOMAN marry her attacker ? The god that says that it is ok to have slaves, & beat them & your wife (both property) to keep them in line ? That moral, good & merciful god ? Would you consider those things moral & just ? & don't give me some BS about we can not understand the mind of god. If a god has a moral policy that includes genocide, slavery, & crap like that he is no god that I would worship.
Morailty is nothing more than socialization of man. We decide what is good based on what is good for society. Killing other members of society upsets the natural balance of things, creates fear, & is not good for the society as a whole. At one time we needed to make up a god for that, because people couldn't or wouldn't do it on their own.
If you need a god to tell you what is right or wrong, & to keep you from doing "wretched" things, then I see a problem with that.
Well how do you view genocidal maniacs? I ask because they didn't see a problem with upsetting any balance and what they did became social norms, so what then. Animals don't make up a god and they suffer the same problems. It also flies in the face of survival of the fittest, there is nothing in nature that stops the killing for the good of anything. Without it they would die. And tackle the silly notion of fear and where that could have come from. I think from armies to police and little stop signs we need lot's of things to keep us from doing wrong. So even if morality is hokey pokey, it makes the world work better.
9/15/2011 11:43:20 PM
Control?
9/15/2011 11:43:35 PM
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Again, these do not seem to be the qualities of an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving god. Killing of innocents & non believers, outright genocide. Believe what you want, but these are not the actions of a god worthy of my devotion.
Originally Posted By WatchingWaiting:
It is a good question and one that the knee-jerk armchair philosophers that come in here to take shots won't be prepared to answer because it requires real thought.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
It is a good question and one that the knee-jerk armchair philosophers that come in here to take shots won't be prepared to answer because it requires real thought.
The question is clear: why do men feel the sting of their conscience when they do wrong If there is no God to judge them? Why do the base pursuits of our flesh - pursuits we prize so highly - leave us empty and unsatisfied? If you claim they fulfill you you are a liar. It is never enough - not food, drink, women. If it is simply social conditioning, why do we suffer guilt? If man created God in his image He should've been more like Satan, but He never has been. He would've been a god that says "all roads lead to me, anyway. Do whatever makes you happy."
To the killing of the Canaanites (and others): the Bible doesn't give us ALL of the details as to the nature of those people. Just that God is just and that was His judgement. How would you deal with Hitler, or a repeat offender child molester if you were given the responsibility?Would you be merciful even if you knew he had no plans to stop? Would you deliver justice?
The Bible doesn't say the rapist must marry his victim, it speaks of a man who seduces a virgin (Exodus 22:16-17) and is repeated in Deuteronomy 22:28. Deuteronomy is the "second law" which is merely the repetition of the Law to a new generation of Israelites. Neither the KJV, the ESV, Douay-Rheims, NKJV, Amplified nor the NASB use "rape." They use "seize" or "lay hold" - as in "You really got a HOLD on me." When read in context of the laws being discussed this is clear. It is unfortunate that the NIV uses "rape" in it's translation of this verse.
The Bible doesn't say it's okay to mistreat slaves or women or wives. In fact, in warns that as a slave owner you should remember that you and your slave both serve the same God and He's watching both of you! The Bible also tells men to loves their wives as their own bodies. The portion of Exodus you may be referring to warns owners of consequences if they kill their slaves or beat them so badly they're permanently injured. Do you believe in spanking?
Does it surprise you that slavery is okay in the Bible? It has never been the condition of your body that is important, but the condition of your heart. It's fine with God if you're black, white, slave, free, poor, rich, sick, healthy, dying, even democrat - it doesn't matter. What matters is the state of your heart no matter what circumstances you find yourself in.
"The socialization of man" doesn't explain feelings of guilt associated with wrongdoing. You and I agreeing together what is unacceptable doesn't explain the physiological response.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
Again, these do not seem to be the qualities of an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving god. Killing of innocents & non believers, outright genocide. Believe what you want, but these are not the actions of a god worthy of my devotion.
Should he reach out with a little finger and snuff out each bad act? How would you run the show? Think of it this way, he creates this world, gives you life, gives you a choice and then you spit on this very deed. Those wiped out in the Bible chose evil, they chose Satan and got what they got. That's justice. Your wife, kids whatever get killed by Satan's deeds and you would demand the same. You are blaming the wrong entity. The best thing with God is one simple repentance and it's forgotten, that's way better than the alternative. And I end with then why wouldn't we have created one worthy of your devotion.
9/15/2011 11:45:26 PM
Originally Posted By WatchingWaiting:
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
As to the irony of: "if you need God to tell you what is right and wrong..." You have a moral compass because He put it there.
I don't buy that one bit. You have a moral compass because of socialization. If a priest, or a even the pope for that matter (I don't know your religion but the pope is a pretty high up guy) told you to go out & kill an entire population of a town because god commanded it, would you do it ?
At this point in your life would you require some more evidence that god commanded this individual to do so ?
Of course you would. Because you know it is wrong.
If god knows everything, sees everything, is omnipotent & omnipresent why does he need us to do his bidding for him ? Why does a god need us to kill for him ?
Deuteronomy 2:
33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain
Why doesn't god fix his own mess since he created everything ?
The short answer. He can't, because there is no god.
9/15/2011 11:54:53 PM
Then why are you here, why hang out and care? Are you trying to save me from myself. Might I smite someone. Might I use the word Jesus? Why can't I believe what I want and why would it trouble you. Why do you let a myth control you? I ask a simple question and not one answer. So again, if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad. Why not a Party God that makes us all happy and smites only bad people who get in our way? Answer me. If God aint real, the story is made up so God can't be that bad, because he didn't smite anyone.
9/15/2011 11:55:03 PM
Originally Posted By marko16:
Should he reach out with a little finger and snuff out each bad act? How would you run the show? Think of it this way, he creates this world, gives you life, gives you a choice and then you spit on this very deed. Those wiped out in the Bible chose evil, they chose Satan and got what they got. That's justice. Your wife, kids whatever get killed by Satan's deeds and you would demand the same. You are blaming the wrong entity. The best thing with God is one simple repentance and it's forgotten, that's way better than the alternative.
Should he reach out with a little finger and snuff out each bad act? How would you run the show? Think of it this way, he creates this world, gives you life, gives you a choice and then you spit on this very deed. Those wiped out in the Bible chose evil, they chose Satan and got what they got. That's justice. Your wife, kids whatever get killed by Satan's deeds and you would demand the same. You are blaming the wrong entity. The best thing with God is one simple repentance and it's forgotten, that's way better than the alternative.
You speak of justice. Your god is just & fair huh ?
Consider this: Nothing happens without the knowledge of your god correct ? So god knew that lucifer would betray him & he would eventually run this little place we call hell. (again, can't happen without the consent of god, who created everything) So god allows another supernatural being (satan) to run amuck and "fool" the people play games with our minds in order to make us do the wrong thing or follow him or whatever, & we fall victim to the shenanigans of this supernatural being, (that god created remember) we will burn in hell for all eternity because we fell for the trick that was laid out by the supernatural being that he created, & he knew we would fall for anyway.
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Why can people not see this ?
9/16/2011 12:05:16 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
Then why are you here, why hang out and care? Are you trying to save me from myself. Might I smite someone. Might I use the word Jesus? Why can't I believe what I want and why would it trouble you. Why do you let a myth control you? I ask a simple question and not one answer. So again, if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad. Why not a Party God that makes us all happy and smites only bad people who get in our way? Answer me.
Then why are you here, why hang out and care? Are you trying to save me from myself. Might I smite someone. Might I use the word Jesus? Why can't I believe what I want and why would it trouble you. Why do you let a myth control you? I ask a simple question and not one answer. So again, if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad. Why not a Party God that makes us all happy and smites only bad people who get in our way? Answer me.
Because I am tired of all of the BS. And the thread title is "Question for the Atheist" of which I am one.
You can believe what ever you want, but when you try to tell me & others that your god is just, & then ignore all the immoral acts attributed to your god in the bible. I have to call BS on the matter.
I have answered this question many times, but I have yet to get a credible answer from a theist about why god allows satan to exist. If your god knows everything, then he knew I would become an atheist, then why did he allow me to be born in the first place ? To use me as a play toy ? Are we just playthings for your god ?
You ask: if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad?
The test of time is no evidence for the existence of an all powerful supernatural being. What is your test of time ? Buddism has been around for quite a while, hinduism, islam, judeaism, greek mythology...its all been there for quite a long time. Which is a person to believe then ?
Read about pascals wager, please.
9/16/2011 12:09:49 AM
Or God created all those beings with the same choice He gives you and me and doesn't stand in the way of that or the outcome. Just like my earthy father let me get into all kinds of trouble. Ever run into a person who's mom controlled them to death and never let them live to experience pain and pleasure. Why can't God be like that? It's a better story to have good battle evil. You still asked the best question by far. This isn't a cop out, but if all God had to offer was easily explainable by simple man he'd be a pretty lame. I like a kick ass God with a great story.
9/16/2011 12:22:36 AM
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Because I am tired of all of the BS. And the thread title is "Question for the Atheist" of which I am one.
You can believe what ever you want, but when you try to tell me & others that your god is just, & then ignore all the immoral acts attributed to your god in the bible. I have to call BS on the matter.
I have answered this question many times, but I have yet to get a credible answer from a theist about why god allows satan to exist. If your god knows everything, then he knew I would become an atheist, then why did he allow me to be born in the first place ? To use me as a play toy ? Are we just playthings for your god ?
You ask: if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad?
The test of time is no evidence for the existence of an all powerful supernatural being. What is your test of time ? Buddism has been around for quite a while, hinduism, islam, judeaism, greek mythology...its all been there for quite a long time. Which is a person to believe then ?
Read about pascals wager, please.
Originally Posted By marko16:
Then why are you here, why hang out and care? Are you trying to save me from myself. Might I smite someone. Might I use the word Jesus? Why can't I believe what I want and why would it trouble you. Why do you let a myth control you? I ask a simple question and not one answer. So again, if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad. Why not a Party God that makes us all happy and smites only bad people who get in our way? Answer me.
Then why are you here, why hang out and care? Are you trying to save me from myself. Might I smite someone. Might I use the word Jesus? Why can't I believe what I want and why would it trouble you. Why do you let a myth control you? I ask a simple question and not one answer. So again, if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad. Why not a Party God that makes us all happy and smites only bad people who get in our way? Answer me.
Because I am tired of all of the BS. And the thread title is "Question for the Atheist" of which I am one.
You can believe what ever you want, but when you try to tell me & others that your god is just, & then ignore all the immoral acts attributed to your god in the bible. I have to call BS on the matter.
I have answered this question many times, but I have yet to get a credible answer from a theist about why god allows satan to exist. If your god knows everything, then he knew I would become an atheist, then why did he allow me to be born in the first place ? To use me as a play toy ? Are we just playthings for your god ?
You ask: if God is fake, why would the one that stands the test of time be so bad?
The test of time is no evidence for the existence of an all powerful supernatural being. What is your test of time ? Buddism has been around for quite a while, hinduism, islam, judeaism, greek mythology...its all been there for quite a long time. Which is a person to believe then ?
Read about pascals wager, please.
It would take a few comparative religion classes to answer your question as to which. But of all those out there, Christianity is the only one that takes you just as you are. God also won't jump out of heaven and feed me If I stay up all night and can't make it to work tomorrow.
9/16/2011 12:23:44 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
Or God created all those beings with the same choice He gives you and me and doesn't stand in the way of that or the outcome. Just like my earthy father let me get into all kinds of trouble. Ever run into a person who's mom controlled them to death and never let them live to experience pain and pleasure. Why can't God be like that? It's a better story to have good battle evil. You still asked the best question by far. This isn't a cop out, but if all God had to offer was easily explainable by simple man he'd be a pretty lame. I like a kick ass God with a great story.
Or God created all those beings with the same choice He gives you and me and doesn't stand in the way of that or the outcome. Just like my earthy father let me get into all kinds of trouble. Ever run into a person who's mom controlled them to death and never let them live to experience pain and pleasure. Why can't God be like that? It's a better story to have good battle evil. You still asked the best question by far. This isn't a cop out, but if all God had to offer was easily explainable by simple man he'd be a pretty lame. I like a kick ass God with a great story.
You are correct, its just a story.
And it is a cop out to draw up all of the "qualities of your god" eg. omnipotent, omnipresent, lives outside of time & space & created everything, and then say that we have no way to comprehend this being that you have created.
I can do the same thing for unicorns. I can create all kinds of special powers that they have such as the ability to shit cotton candy, and then say that you can't possibly fathom the awsome power of the unicorn to take raw sewage & turn it into cotton candy.
9/16/2011 11:21:39 AM
Sometimes we as Christians forget we're just witnesses and not lawyers.
9/16/2011 11:49:41 AM
Let me pose a question to the up-in-arms atheists
Set aside the Old Testament.
Look only at what we know of Jesus.
Now, please try and attack the things that Jesus has said. I'm sure I'll get "so if you're not saved, you go to hell, how is that fair?", the truth is, it isn't. But God makes the rules.
I can't give you incontrovertible evidence, I can only point to my life before finding my faith and my life after God took me into His merciful arms. It has nothing to do with morals. It has nothing to do with a "system". It has nothing to do with control. In fact, Jesus rebukes the leaders of the age. He speaks against their rules. He speaks of love, He speaks of forgiveness, and He speaks AGAINST slavery
THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
I'm probably a heretic in most circles, but I don't completely subscribe to everything that Paul said or was reported to say. They are letters, they are not the Word of God (at least to me). When I read the word of Jesus, I find no hate, I find no slavery, I find no rape, I find love, I find hope, and I find instruction that tells me to walk through the narrow gate that leads to life and warns to flee from the wide path of destruction.
Back to my original question:
Can the anti-Christians (you're not just atheists, you don't just "not believe" you attack Christianity, and primarily Christianity above other religions) make the same arguments against Jesus that they do of the Old Testament's account of God?
I believe a lot of the OT to reveal the nature of God and His word to His original chosen people, but I also believe that some of Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisee's had to do with their profaning of the scripture. Jesus doesn't speak of the Canaanite slaughter, or goat/bull sacrifice, he does speak of the prophets, he does speak of the Law (10 Commandments), but he never goes into the ritualism that we find in the early (non-prophetic) books of the OT other than to reject it.
Set aside the Old Testament.
Look only at what we know of Jesus.
Now, please try and attack the things that Jesus has said. I'm sure I'll get "so if you're not saved, you go to hell, how is that fair?", the truth is, it isn't. But God makes the rules.
I can't give you incontrovertible evidence, I can only point to my life before finding my faith and my life after God took me into His merciful arms. It has nothing to do with morals. It has nothing to do with a "system". It has nothing to do with control. In fact, Jesus rebukes the leaders of the age. He speaks against their rules. He speaks of love, He speaks of forgiveness, and He speaks AGAINST slavery
THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
I'm probably a heretic in most circles, but I don't completely subscribe to everything that Paul said or was reported to say. They are letters, they are not the Word of God (at least to me). When I read the word of Jesus, I find no hate, I find no slavery, I find no rape, I find love, I find hope, and I find instruction that tells me to walk through the narrow gate that leads to life and warns to flee from the wide path of destruction.
Back to my original question:
Can the anti-Christians (you're not just atheists, you don't just "not believe" you attack Christianity, and primarily Christianity above other religions) make the same arguments against Jesus that they do of the Old Testament's account of God?
I believe a lot of the OT to reveal the nature of God and His word to His original chosen people, but I also believe that some of Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisee's had to do with their profaning of the scripture. Jesus doesn't speak of the Canaanite slaughter, or goat/bull sacrifice, he does speak of the prophets, he does speak of the Law (10 Commandments), but he never goes into the ritualism that we find in the early (non-prophetic) books of the OT other than to reject it.
9/16/2011 5:07:02 PM
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Let me pose a question to the up-in-arms atheists
Set aside the Old Testament.
Let me pose a question to the up-in-arms atheists
Set aside the Old Testament.
How in good faith can you do this ? How can you set aside any of the versions of the bible.
I am told that the bible is the word of god, transcribed by man.
To say that you are going to set aside one part of your religion to prove a point is disingenuous.
Also, atheists are not anti-anything & we don't attack anyone. What we are is non-thiests. Atheist by definition means "without theism". The majority of people in the U.S. are christian, so naturally the majority of the time we are speaking about christianity, but we deny all gods, not just the god of the bible & OT.
The argument I make against Jesus is not that I disagree with any of his teachings but rather I deny his status as the son of god. Just because he had a good message, doesn't mean that his back story isn't bogus.
And I would like you to know this: I do not consider myself an "up in arms athiest". What tends to occur on these types of threads is that the theist misinterprets exactly what an atheist is, does, or believes based on HIS understanding of atheism (usually getting it wrong) and what I like to think I am doing, is correcting that.
9/16/2011 5:18:47 PM
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
You hit the nail on the head.
The reason we do what we do, is that is the only way we found to live together harmoniously. You can think of the Earth as a science experiment if you think about it in evolutionary terms. Look at civilization, and then look at how it evolved. We do what we do the way we do it because that is the only way we know how that worked well enough to be the dominant prevailing species on the planet.
9/17/2011 9:35:23 PM
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
You hit the nail on the head.
The reason we do what we do, is that is the only way we found to live together harmoniously. You can think of the Earth as a science experiment if you think about it in evolutionary terms. Look at civilization, and then look at how it evolved. We do what we do the way we do it because that is the only way we know how that worked well enough to be the dominant prevailing species on the planet.
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
You hit the nail on the head.
The reason we do what we do, is that is the only way we found to live together harmoniously. You can think of the Earth as a science experiment if you think about it in evolutionary terms. Look at civilization, and then look at how it evolved. We do what we do the way we do it because that is the only way we know how that worked well enough to be the dominant prevailing species on the planet.
Bingo.
Morals are sublimated reproductive/survival instincts, just like a lot of other human constructs.
9/19/2011 11:57:13 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
Ok why the existence of a god of rules that are considered right, and not a god who says party away?
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
That's an easy one. Once the existence of gods is established to explain the world and to calm fears, the next step is the need for authority. Who can speak for these gods? What do they want? That calls for a priesthood. And how does the priesthood establish authority? Social control. Social control means sacrifices, taboos, and control of social institutions, and even political power. You see it every culture, and every religion. Such things can have a secular basis too, but socially, religion is more powerful, becuase it is cloaked in the authority of deities. You can argue with secular law and customs through reason, but religious law and custom is not so easily opposed, since those who enforce allegedly do so in the name of gods.
This is cultural anthropology 101 stuff.
Originally Posted By marko16:
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
If men created the notion of God to explain their existence or make them feel better or whatever, why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure.
That's an easy one. Once the existence of gods is established to explain the world and to calm fears, the next step is the need for authority. Who can speak for these gods? What do they want? That calls for a priesthood. And how does the priesthood establish authority? Social control. Social control means sacrifices, taboos, and control of social institutions, and even political power. You see it every culture, and every religion. Such things can have a secular basis too, but socially, religion is more powerful, becuase it is cloaked in the authority of deities. You can argue with secular law and customs through reason, but religious law and custom is not so easily opposed, since those who enforce allegedly do so in the name of gods.
This is cultural anthropology 101 stuff.
Ok why the existence of a god of rules that are considered right, and not a god who says party away?
Becuase you can;t control the populace if there are no rules. Even the pagan religions typically have some element of social control in them.
If man makes the rules, you can't logically conclude the need for authority. Given the freedom they would deem rules unnecessary.
Based on what? Humans are social animals, and like all social animals, we develop complex rules of interaction and hierarchy. Religious authority is just one spoke in that wheel.
Which is also illogical, because it's a rule. Get it yet? You have no basis other than history to make that claim.
I'd say that's a pretty strong basis!
And I would argue a God given history that established all we have. Also given your logic, Hitler and the like are just as good as anyone elses. The leaders and societal controls deemed what they did just fine. Why would that be viewed as bad, it's just another world view.
Just because world views are socially constructed doesn't mean they are somehow all equally valid. If we, as a culture make judgments about world views, we can certainly decide one such as Hitlers is unacceptable.
Don't you think they'd have more power and control if the said "party on and screw the pooch".
No... not even close. How do establish power relationships that way? Authority? Even, say, the Roman religion carefully channeled such behaviors.
It is not logical to limit mans desires based on what man wants.
I don;t know what you're getting at there. Power is only realized through its exercise. If you want to assert authority over others, you must claim it, and exercise it. It's why a "religion" like Wicca has no power.
10/10/2011 1:27:30 AM
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Let me pose a question to the up-in-arms atheists
Set aside the Old Testament.
Look only at what we know of Jesus.
Now, please try and attack the things that Jesus has said. I'm sure I'll get "so if you're not saved, you go to hell, how is that fair?", the truth is, it isn't. But God makes the rules.
I can't give you incontrovertible evidence, I can only point to my life before finding my faith and my life after God took me into His merciful arms. It has nothing to do with morals. It has nothing to do with a "system". It has nothing to do with control. In fact, Jesus rebukes the leaders of the age. He speaks against their rules. He speaks of love, He speaks of forgiveness, and He speaks AGAINST slavery
THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
I'm probably a heretic in most circles, but I don't completely subscribe to everything that Paul said or was reported to say. They are letters, they are not the Word of God (at least to me). When I read the word of Jesus, I find no hate, I find no slavery, I find no rape, I find love, I find hope, and I find instruction that tells me to walk through the narrow gate that leads to life and warns to flee from the wide path of destruction.
Back to my original question:
Can the anti-Christians (you're not just atheists, you don't just "not believe" you attack Christianity, and primarily Christianity above other religions) make the same arguments against Jesus that they do of the Old Testament's account of God?
I believe a lot of the OT to reveal the nature of God and His word to His original chosen people, but I also believe that some of Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisee's had to do with their profaning of the scripture. Jesus doesn't speak of the Canaanite slaughter, or goat/bull sacrifice, he does speak of the prophets, he does speak of the Law (10 Commandments), but he never goes into the ritualism that we find in the early (non-prophetic) books of the OT other than to reject it.
Let me pose a question to the up-in-arms atheists
Set aside the Old Testament.
Look only at what we know of Jesus.
Now, please try and attack the things that Jesus has said. I'm sure I'll get "so if you're not saved, you go to hell, how is that fair?", the truth is, it isn't. But God makes the rules.
I can't give you incontrovertible evidence, I can only point to my life before finding my faith and my life after God took me into His merciful arms. It has nothing to do with morals. It has nothing to do with a "system". It has nothing to do with control. In fact, Jesus rebukes the leaders of the age. He speaks against their rules. He speaks of love, He speaks of forgiveness, and He speaks AGAINST slavery
THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
I'm probably a heretic in most circles, but I don't completely subscribe to everything that Paul said or was reported to say. They are letters, they are not the Word of God (at least to me). When I read the word of Jesus, I find no hate, I find no slavery, I find no rape, I find love, I find hope, and I find instruction that tells me to walk through the narrow gate that leads to life and warns to flee from the wide path of destruction.
Back to my original question:
Can the anti-Christians (you're not just atheists, you don't just "not believe" you attack Christianity, and primarily Christianity above other religions) make the same arguments against Jesus that they do of the Old Testament's account of God?
I believe a lot of the OT to reveal the nature of God and His word to His original chosen people, but I also believe that some of Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisee's had to do with their profaning of the scripture. Jesus doesn't speak of the Canaanite slaughter, or goat/bull sacrifice, he does speak of the prophets, he does speak of the Law (10 Commandments), but he never goes into the ritualism that we find in the early (non-prophetic) books of the OT other than to reject it.
Narcissistic paranoia if you ask me. This is the same attitude that started the Crusades.
10/10/2011 1:41:33 AM
And to answer questions of "where does morality come from," well it comes from humans. Humans invented morality by defining it. It's a subjective concept.
Penguins fight horrible weather conditions and do everything they can to protect their egg. Some penguins egg's don't hatch, and the parents are stressed beyond belief, as any mammal parent might be with a "stillborn." In an effort to fill the void, they sometimes try to "kidnap" another baby penguin. The collective group of penguins see this behavior as counter-productive to the group, and will attack and oust that penguin from the group.
Is that morality? Do the penguins know that it is immoral to steal another's child?
We do the same thing. Many of the 10 Commandments speak to these basic "societal rules." It is counterproductive to group survival to have someone killing off members of the group. Thus, they are attacked and ousted if not eliminated. Today we call it "law enforcement."
I think what confuses many religious individuals is understanding and accepting that our species retains both a primitive side to our humanity as well as a "civilized", "refinded" ability. Being aware of one's existence can be a lot to take-in for a mind not willing to accept the unknown, and I think any ideology that attempts to explain such understanding is a defense mechanism.
I'm not suggesting it's wrong, or that I'm "anti-religion." I could care less, so long as you don't force it upon me. But I am suggesting that it promotes a very underdeveloped filter in which to view the world around them, and results in child-like, and often irrational, and sometimes counter-productive behavior.
Penguins fight horrible weather conditions and do everything they can to protect their egg. Some penguins egg's don't hatch, and the parents are stressed beyond belief, as any mammal parent might be with a "stillborn." In an effort to fill the void, they sometimes try to "kidnap" another baby penguin. The collective group of penguins see this behavior as counter-productive to the group, and will attack and oust that penguin from the group.
Is that morality? Do the penguins know that it is immoral to steal another's child?
We do the same thing. Many of the 10 Commandments speak to these basic "societal rules." It is counterproductive to group survival to have someone killing off members of the group. Thus, they are attacked and ousted if not eliminated. Today we call it "law enforcement."
I think what confuses many religious individuals is understanding and accepting that our species retains both a primitive side to our humanity as well as a "civilized", "refinded" ability. Being aware of one's existence can be a lot to take-in for a mind not willing to accept the unknown, and I think any ideology that attempts to explain such understanding is a defense mechanism.
I'm not suggesting it's wrong, or that I'm "anti-religion." I could care less, so long as you don't force it upon me. But I am suggesting that it promotes a very underdeveloped filter in which to view the world around them, and results in child-like, and often irrational, and sometimes counter-productive behavior.
10/10/2011 7:44:56 PM
It isn't, we don't, they're not, they haven't, etc.
We don't do things just for our own pleasure. I do laundry, cook, do yardwork, pay bills, etc. I don't cheat on my wife, I volunteer and contribute money to charities. I can tell you it's not "for my own pleasure" or because I'm worried about burning in hell.
Apologists abound, as a previous poster proved.
seize/sēz/
Verb:
Take hold of suddenly and forcibly: "she jumped up and seized his arm".
Capture (a place) using force.
Sure sounds like rape to me. In reality it's just that he's ruined her value as an economic object and so has to absorb the cost himself. You know, like in Deuteronomy if a bride is found not to be a virgin:
Deuteronomy 22:21 "Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
The bible has a few niceties in it but for the most part is just primitive rubbish.
"why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure."
We don't do things just for our own pleasure. I do laundry, cook, do yardwork, pay bills, etc. I don't cheat on my wife, I volunteer and contribute money to charities. I can tell you it's not "for my own pleasure" or because I'm worried about burning in hell.
Apologists abound, as a previous poster proved.
seize/sēz/
Verb:
Take hold of suddenly and forcibly: "she jumped up and seized his arm".
Capture (a place) using force.
Sure sounds like rape to me. In reality it's just that he's ruined her value as an economic object and so has to absorb the cost himself. You know, like in Deuteronomy if a bride is found not to be a virgin:
Deuteronomy 22:21 "Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
The bible has a few niceties in it but for the most part is just primitive rubbish.
"why would the God nature that survives and thrives be one that is opposite of what man really wants. We want power, money, sex, etc, as fulfillment, but no matter how much of that we get we come back to these basic questions. And those who follow those pursuits are empty hollow and unhappy. The wretched obsessions haven't spawned anything but disaster, so answer me why? Since nothing would really matter, why would another non meaning, such as morality even creep into the picture. There would be no sense to just coming up with the idea that one should not do something that is not for ones own pleasure."
