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Does your faith instruct that people who commit suicide go to hell?
9/11/2011 8:36:27 AM
If so, does that include the people who jumped on 9/11?
9/11/2011 10:28:59 AM
NO!
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
9/11/2011 10:35:05 AM
Well from reading my bible ,I would say yes Commenting suicide would take someone straight to hell. But I really wouldn't call every jumper in the 9/11 attack a suicide ,my heart goes out the those people that didn't have a way out facing burning jet fuel that's hot enough to melt steel or a fall. I just hope their heart was in the right place.
9/11/2011 10:42:21 AM
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
9/11/2011 10:45:38 AM
No, not in the Bible
9/11/2011 6:49:19 PM
There is no sin that Jesus cannot forgive there are no sinners that cannot be forgiven.
There are many sinners who believe in Jesus but do not trust him with their broken lives.
It a heavy question…. but I don’t believe that is the question those who jumped on 9/11 were facing.
Like all men they will stand before The Righteous Judge just as we all will… I trust him to know the answer to the question of their heart better than we might speculate on the question of their hard decision.
There are many sinners who believe in Jesus but do not trust him with their broken lives.
It a heavy question…. but I don’t believe that is the question those who jumped on 9/11 were facing.
Like all men they will stand before The Righteous Judge just as we all will… I trust him to know the answer to the question of their heart better than we might speculate on the question of their hard decision.
9/11/2011 7:05:58 PM
We understand that only God can look into our hearts, and there are lots of things we do not understand. We leave it to Him.
9/11/2011 7:09:53 PM
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
What make you think they wouldn't if they reject Him? People die every day and are judged.
9/11/2011 9:40:29 PM
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
9/11/2011 10:50:03 PM
If people that commit suicide can not be saved, then none of us can be...
All sins are the same in His view.
All sins are the same in His view.
9/12/2011 1:46:11 AM
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
9/12/2011 6:21:59 AM
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
I don't want to get into a big argument about the existence of God - not what I was looking for. But I will say I was raised Catholic and have done all the rites/sacraments. I just don't believe. Faith never happened for me. I've always been a skeptic and a contrarian. But, if there is a God, I figure He knows why I am the way I am and he'd see through it if I claimed to believe in something I don't so I let my conscience be my guide and I figure it will all work out. I KNOW that goes against the rules, you don't have to tell me.
9/12/2011 3:09:09 PM
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
I don't want to get into a big argument about the existence of God - not what I was looking for. But I will say I was raised Catholic and have done all the rites/sacraments. I just don't believe. Faith never happened for me. I've always been a skeptic and a contrarian. But, if there is a God, I figure He knows why I am the way I am and he'd see through it if I claimed to believe in something I don't so I let my conscience be my guide and I figure it will all work out. I KNOW that goes against the rules, you don't have to tell me.
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
I don't want to get into a big argument about the existence of God - not what I was looking for. But I will say I was raised Catholic and have done all the rites/sacraments. I just don't believe. Faith never happened for me. I've always been a skeptic and a contrarian. But, if there is a God, I figure He knows why I am the way I am and he'd see through it if I claimed to believe in something I don't so I let my conscience be my guide and I figure it will all work out. I KNOW that goes against the rules, you don't have to tell me.
I don't want to argue about the existence of God either ,before I got my life right that's what I would have had to do if someone asked if God is real. But I just wanted you to know before its to late God will let you know he's real if you seek him ,and it's a better life. Maybe Catholicism is not right for you it wasn't for my wife she was raised Catholic did her first 3 sacraments. But she just lacked a lot of understanding and came away with nothing from going to mass ,she said mass was for the most part a lot of standing and reciting scripture more like a ritual or something you just did like you just go though the motions. I don't belive every Catholic church is the same there are good ones out there because of what I've been told but this was the experience my wife and some of her friends & family had.
It's all about a relationship with Jesus Christ without church you don't have one ,its in the bible. I'm not trying to piss you off ,I just cure about you.
9/12/2011 5:55:28 PM
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
I would agree.
As another example, let us say that I am walking to the corner store, and a man attacks me with a knife. As I try to fend him off and draw a weapon to defend myself, I naturally try to get distance from him and the knife that is slashing me. In so doing, I back into the street and am struck and killed by a speeding car. Though my actions directly led to my death, the chain of events was set in motion by another, and I was not seeking death. Accordingly, the incident is a murder, not a suicide.
Having faced fire before, I hold the same to be true of those who jumped from the towers––-they were almost certainly not thinking clearly and were trying to escape the pain and terror of the fires, and were not, I think, deliberately seeking death.
9/13/2011 12:02:34 AM
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
9/13/2011 12:14:46 AM
Originally Posted By sterling18:
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
9/13/2011 12:24:58 AM
Originally Posted By Marie:
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
We've held services for those who committed suicide. Not for us to judge, we're just requires to comfort the family if they allow us.Originally Posted By sterling18:
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
9/13/2011 12:34:55 AM
Originally Posted By sterling18:
Originally Posted By Marie:
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
We've held services for those who committed suicide. Not for us to judge, we're just requires to comfort the family if they allow us.
Originally Posted By sterling18:
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
Burial from the Church and the priest officiating at a service elsewhere (such as at the grave site) are two different things. Someone who doesn't darken the church door for 40 years, but leaves instructions for a church funeral because "that's what's done" isn't going to get the church burial, either.
From here: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
The Orthodox Church has, over the centuries, taught that we do not have the right to take our own lives, since life is a gift from God which we are called upon to preserve and enhance. Hence, the Church considers direct suicide, when a person destroys his or her life with his or her own hand, to be the most serious kind of murder, because there is no opportunity for repentance. The canons and practice of the Church thus prohibit a Church burial to a person who has committed suicide.
9/13/2011 12:44:01 AM
Originally Posted By Marie:
Burial from the Church and the priest officiating at a service elsewhere (such as at the grave site) are two different things. Someone who doesn't darken the church door for 40 years, but leaves instructions for a church funeral because "that's what's done" isn't going to get the church burial, either.
From here: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
The Orthodox Church has, over the centuries, taught that we do not have the right to take our own lives, since life is a gift from God which we are called upon to preserve and enhance. Hence, the Church considers direct suicide, when a person destroys his or her life with his or her own hand, to be the most serious kind of murder, because there is no opportunity for repentance. The canons and practice of the Church thus prohibit a Church burial to a person who has committed suicide.
I'm not arguing but we've held services in our meeting houses inside the chapel and consecrated the grave site as a place of rest. We've done this for inactive members (those who haven't attended church in 40 years) and even non members. If they wish to have the services there, we don't say no. We even have the families in the congregation put together a little meal for the immediate family. I guess that's where funeral potatoes comes from. Originally Posted By sterling18:
Originally Posted By Marie:
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
We've held services for those who committed suicide. Not for us to judge, we're just requires to comfort the family if they allow us.Originally Posted By sterling18:
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
I don't believe those who are under extreme mental stress or mental illness would be commended to hell per say. Similar to those who are mentally disabled.
This.
What you wrote is what is generally what my Church teaches (Orthodox). While those who commit suicide are not allowed a Church funeral, if there is evidence of mental illiness, extreme mental stress, etc., the Church funeral will be done.
Burial from the Church and the priest officiating at a service elsewhere (such as at the grave site) are two different things. Someone who doesn't darken the church door for 40 years, but leaves instructions for a church funeral because "that's what's done" isn't going to get the church burial, either.
From here: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
The Orthodox Church has, over the centuries, taught that we do not have the right to take our own lives, since life is a gift from God which we are called upon to preserve and enhance. Hence, the Church considers direct suicide, when a person destroys his or her life with his or her own hand, to be the most serious kind of murder, because there is no opportunity for repentance. The canons and practice of the Church thus prohibit a Church burial to a person who has committed suicide.
We are instructed to execute our priesthood duties and provide comfort to the families.
9/13/2011 4:41:05 PM
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
From this dumbass brit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2035720/9-11-jumpers-America-wants-forget-victims-fell-Twin-Towers.html
9/14/2011 8:29:32 PM
No.
Interestingly/coincidentally, I was at a suicide prevention conference today and one of the panel discussions (not, thankfully, the one that I moderated) was centered around faith-based interventions and religiosity WRT suicidality.
Interestingly/coincidentally, I was at a suicide prevention conference today and one of the panel discussions (not, thankfully, the one that I moderated) was centered around faith-based interventions and religiosity WRT suicidality.
9/16/2011 4:50:53 PM
Samson committed suicide. When he brought down the pillars, committing suicude is a sin but not necessarily one that would prevent you from going to heaven. I would think that much like Samson God considers the circumstances involved.
9/16/2011 5:34:34 PM
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
Concur
e.g. A soldier who rushes a machine gun nest to allow his squad mates to get out.
9/16/2011 5:40:41 PM
Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
Concur
e.g. A soldier who rushes a machine gun nest to allow his squad mates to get out.
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
Concur
e.g. A soldier who rushes a machine gun nest to allow his squad mates to get out.
I'm really benefiting from the input here and no longer worry about those who fell (I will no longer consider them to have jumped) BUT I disagree that a soldier who rushes a machine gun nest or Samson are the same as those who fell from the towers. The soldier in your scenario and Samson died to save others and are heroes. Nothing about their behavior smacks of suicide; theirs would be noble deaths. Those who fell were in essence pushed. Sadly, they saved no one.
9/16/2011 6:03:28 PM
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
I'm really benefiting from the input here and no longer worry about those who fell (I will no longer consider them to have jumped) BUT I disagree that a soldier who rushes a machine gun nest or Samson are the same as those who fell from the towers. The soldier in your scenario and Samson died to save others and are heroes. Nothing about their behavior smacks of suicide; theirs would be noble deaths. Those who fell were in essence pushed. Sadly, they saved no one.
I'm really benefiting from the input here and no longer worry about those who fell (I will no longer consider them to have jumped) BUT I disagree that a soldier who rushes a machine gun nest or Samson are the same as those who fell from the towers. The soldier in your scenario and Samson died to save others and are heroes. Nothing about their behavior smacks of suicide; theirs would be noble deaths. Those who fell were in essence pushed. Sadly, they saved no one.
I was using that as another example of someone who may die through their own actions but had no desire to die, ergo not suicidal in intent and therefore not suicide.
I see the distinction you are making between the two (volunteerd vs. pushed) and agree.
9/19/2011 6:04:24 AM
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
This
9/29/2011 9:40:47 AM
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
9/29/2011 1:49:48 PM
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
How do you know this is it isn't in the Bible?
9/29/2011 2:23:08 PM
In Buddhism, suicide is frowned on as bad Karma, at least in the Zen Tradition. I am not sure where the Tibetan Monks who self-immolated themselves fall.
In the face of what happened on 9/11, it would not be as such. The jumpers did not seek to die nor did they cause their own death as if they had not jumped, it would have been a much more painfull death. There was only a choice of how to die, that's all. The ones who planned this attack are the cause of it and they would be the ones who gain the bad Karma.
In the face of what happened on 9/11, it would not be as such. The jumpers did not seek to die nor did they cause their own death as if they had not jumped, it would have been a much more painfull death. There was only a choice of how to die, that's all. The ones who planned this attack are the cause of it and they would be the ones who gain the bad Karma.
9/29/2011 5:04:53 PM
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Duh, because I read it!
9/29/2011 5:33:38 PM
Originally Posted By MetalChef:
In Buddhism, suicide is frowned on as bad Karma, at least in the Zen Tradition. I am not sure where the Tibetan Monks who self-immolated themselves fall.
In the face of what happened on 9/11, it would not be as such. The jumpers did not seek to die nor did they cause their own death as if they had not jumped, it would have been a much more painfull death. There was only a choice of how to die, that's all. The ones who planned this attack are the cause of it and they would be the ones who gain the bad Karma.
In Buddhism, suicide is frowned on as bad Karma, at least in the Zen Tradition. I am not sure where the Tibetan Monks who self-immolated themselves fall.
In the face of what happened on 9/11, it would not be as such. The jumpers did not seek to die nor did they cause their own death as if they had not jumped, it would have been a much more painfull death. There was only a choice of how to die, that's all. The ones who planned this attack are the cause of it and they would be the ones who gain the bad Karma.
interesting point, they did not really alter their fate, only their suffering. If the smoke was bad enough they may have actually only reacted involuntarily, like someone with their head held under water, at some point nature takes over and makes decisions for you.
9/30/2011 11:29:43 AM
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
Duh, because I read it!
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Duh, because I read it!
It is in the Bible.
Thanks,
SAE
9/30/2011 9:38:59 PM
Your understanding of free will appears flawed to me. I agree that no one can snatch a believer from God's hands. But there is nothing that says we cannot choose to leave it. Once saved does not equal always saved.
Perhaps you can cite scripture to show me I'm wrong?
From the parable of the Sower:
Matthew 13:18–22
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
Paul's warning:
1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
Perhaps you can cite scripture to show me I'm wrong?
From the parable of the Sower:
Matthew 13:18–22
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
Paul's warning:
1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
10/1/2011 3:03:13 AM
The debate about "once saved always saved" is one of the big determining factors between denominations,along with predestination. That being said, jumping from a burning building is kind of a gray area. Much like the death of Judas. Judas was repentant of what he had done in betraying Christ, but he also killed himself. So the question then becomes where his heart was at the time of his death, just as it does for the jumpers on 9/11. I know it seems distasteful to most to say that the vast majority of those that died will most likely not find the Kingdom, but it is what it is. Remember the Lord shall have mercy on whom he shall have mercy on. We may get to heaven and find all sorts of people there we never expected. There is a possibility we may find those whom we knew to be atheists, or even suicide bombers and the like. Not because their faith was appropriate but because it is within the power of the Lord to grant grace to whoever he chooses. Do I think that is likely? No. Is it possible? Very much so. Many of us Christians get so caught up in being saved that we forget that we were once condemned, in fact we still are condemned but for the Blood of the Lamb covering our sins. There is nothing we can do for the thousands who died on September 11th, there is however a lot we can do for those still walking around every day, and they are who we should concern ourselves with, not those who are beyond our ability to witness to.
10/1/2011 11:01:34 PM
The sin of Judas is suicide. Essentially a murder suicide. The sin is related to not having others god's before God.
He never gave God the chance to forgive him.
In doing so, you deny the Holy Spirit. That is the one unforgivable sin.
Suicide is truly completely selfish.
The people who jumped on 911 where desperate in a different way when they jumped. They jumped out of self preservation. Certain death was fire and smoke. They were trapped.
I am sure their last thought was.. This is my only chance of surviving and I hope they can get to me in time. It was to survive.
This is a hard thing to get your head around. People who commit suicide see no possibilities other than that one. It is a dark horrible place and they have lost all hope. The pain is too much and they feel very alone.
Depression like Diabetes is a chemical imbalance . There is a lot of shame with it. It robs the persons the ability to cope.
Not every body that takes this route is depressed. The ones who try to escape the consequences of doing horrible things are cowards.
I hope God has mercy on those of us who are just so lost we can't face another day, another min, another second in pain. Hell is forever.
He never gave God the chance to forgive him.
In doing so, you deny the Holy Spirit. That is the one unforgivable sin.
Suicide is truly completely selfish.
The people who jumped on 911 where desperate in a different way when they jumped. They jumped out of self preservation. Certain death was fire and smoke. They were trapped.
I am sure their last thought was.. This is my only chance of surviving and I hope they can get to me in time. It was to survive.
This is a hard thing to get your head around. People who commit suicide see no possibilities other than that one. It is a dark horrible place and they have lost all hope. The pain is too much and they feel very alone.
Depression like Diabetes is a chemical imbalance . There is a lot of shame with it. It robs the persons the ability to cope.
Not every body that takes this route is depressed. The ones who try to escape the consequences of doing horrible things are cowards.
I hope God has mercy on those of us who are just so lost we can't face another day, another min, another second in pain. Hell is forever.
10/2/2011 8:36:09 PM
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Sonny, I have a question and do not mean any disrespect in any way but do you truly believe that a. Loving god would let a generally good person be tortured for all of eternity?
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
Originally Posted By TwoDogKnight:
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
NO!
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=32835
What makes you think anyone of faith believes the victims of 9/11/2001 would go to hell?
Well, you could say they were murdered. Given an impossible choice. But isn't that a slippery slope? Face burning or kill yourself? Watch your children starve or steal bread? Is a sin a sin or do our emotions (as observers) make God's laws into gray areas? I'm not a believer, just curious how believers, or really how RELIGIONS, would respond to the question. It is a tough one. The jumpers are the worst part of that day for me.
ETA: If there is a heaven, I hope they are there.
Sonny, I have a question and do not mean any disrespect in any way but do you truly believe that a. Loving god would let a generally good person be tortured for all of eternity?
So when do you want to find out if there's a heaven. The benefits of being a believer on earth are good ,but just being a good person is not good enough.
10/3/2011 6:32:14 AM
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
+1 This.
The only difference between jumping and staying is your choosing HOW to die.
10/3/2011 10:18:21 PM
The premise of the question comes from the belief that one cannot ask for forgiveness of the sin when he/she is dead, therefore it is unforgiven and worthy of hell.
I believe Scripture shows repentance as a gift granted to someone by God (the capability and desire to 2 Tim 2:25) and a response to what God through His Spirit does in the now new believer by the believer, therefore creating a desire for Him in that person who responds in faith (also a gift Phil 1:29, Eph 2:8-9).
I do not believe that Judas' weeping was repentance. He may have felt sorry or kind of bad, but I do not think his sorrow was a response of a saved heart, especially the way Scripture describes him after (John 17:12). There isn't one believer in the Bible that is spoken of in condemnation like the words used for Judas in that verse.
So, since I believe asking for forgiveness is a response of a person saved and not what makes them saved, so a born again person who kills himself/herself is absolutely saved as his/her standing before God was one that is now new and can never be changed (John 10, Phil 1:6, 1 Thess 5:23-24).
I believe Scripture shows repentance as a gift granted to someone by God (the capability and desire to 2 Tim 2:25) and a response to what God through His Spirit does in the now new believer by the believer, therefore creating a desire for Him in that person who responds in faith (also a gift Phil 1:29, Eph 2:8-9).
I do not believe that Judas' weeping was repentance. He may have felt sorry or kind of bad, but I do not think his sorrow was a response of a saved heart, especially the way Scripture describes him after (John 17:12). There isn't one believer in the Bible that is spoken of in condemnation like the words used for Judas in that verse.
So, since I believe asking for forgiveness is a response of a person saved and not what makes them saved, so a born again person who kills himself/herself is absolutely saved as his/her standing before God was one that is now new and can never be changed (John 10, Phil 1:6, 1 Thess 5:23-24).
10/6/2011 6:31:24 PM
Originally Posted By PatriotAr15:
+1 This.
The only difference between jumping and staying is your choosing HOW to die.
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
It isn't suicide when the person doesn't want to die.
+1 This.
The only difference between jumping and staying is your choosing HOW to die.
Isnt it form of euthanasia then? An act that is froned upon...
10/7/2011 11:01:43 PM
No.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
10/7/2011 11:07:12 PM
References:
Old Testament
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 5
Numbers 11
Judges 9
Judges 16
1 Samuel 31
2 Samuel 1
2 Samuel 17
1 King 16
1 King 18
Jonah 4
New Testament
Matthew 27
Philippians 1
Revelation 9
Old Testament
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 5
Numbers 11
Judges 9
Judges 16
1 Samuel 31
2 Samuel 1
2 Samuel 17
1 King 16
1 King 18
Jonah 4
New Testament
Matthew 27
Philippians 1
Revelation 9
10/9/2011 2:18:28 AM
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
No.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
No.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
Well covered though I believe you may be wrong on your statement that suicide is not sin. At best it's a sin of ommission, if not commission. Even as a sin I still believe, as stated above, that if one's standing is righteous before God his/her debt is paid even for this act, so one would not be held guilty for this sin as it would have been given to Christ and His death on the cross.
11/12/2011 4:17:44 PM
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
Duh, because I read it!
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Duh, because I read it!
Glazer is correct. The subject is not directly addressed anywhere in the Bible.
11/18/2011 3:31:20 AM
Originally Posted By sribble1:
Well covered though I believe you may be wrong on your statement that suicide is not sin. At best it's a sin of ommission, if not commission. Even as a sin I still believe, as stated above, that if one's standing is righteous before God his/her debt is paid even for this act, so one would not be held guilty for this sin as it would have been given to Christ and His death on the cross.
Originally Posted By GoatHerder:
No.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
No.
I do not believe they would go to hell for jumping. It is not certain that they would die upon hitting the ground and they were avoiding certain death by staying.
"Thou shalt not kill" is what my KJV states. I have read the Hebrew version and it goes "Thou shall not murder". There is a difference in these 2 statements and it is important. I believe murder is the correct term. War and self defense appear to be acceptable so then it has to be 'murder' over 'kill'. Murder has malice involved. This also happens to go inline with acts God condoned in the Old Testament.
I also do not believe suicide is committing murder. There is an absence of malice as a requisite for murder (see the definition). I have read all of the passages pertaining to suicide and other than David executing an Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:2-17)for stating that Saul was assisted by him to die (Thou shall not kill the anointed of God), there is no reporting as if it were a sin. It is clearly wrong but not sinful. It is odd but this description is differing with 1 Samuel 31.
Judas was mentioned here but his sin was in the BETRAYAL for money of the Savior. His guilt and remorse was why he ended his life. I am not sure how I would have felt upon realizing I had just betrayed my Lord the Son Of God.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
These clearly pertain to worldly knowledge over obedience to God- the next...
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This clearly has to do with the morality of adultery and sexual misconduct not according to the Lord's will when taken as a whole.
If you do not use the KJV I do not apologize. I grew up with it and I understand it. I try not to take anything out of context but as a whole.
Suicide seems to be something that the Old and New Testament writers knew of and accepted. They did not condone it. It is a somewhat selfish act and is wrong but not sinful.
As for going straight to hell- we are all sinners before God. None are perfect. How is it then that we are able to return to God's presence? By our ACT of contrition (action) continually, and by the intersession of Jesus The Christ. We are continually reminded that we are to be judged by our lives that we lived as an entirety. One sin cannot prevent us from Heaven- for if this were so none would pass through. It is our life judged as a whole and how we conducted ourselves when confronted with the truth.
The only ones that I am aware of would be Satan and his followers and even they- they are allowed to be judged based on their existence before being thrown into The Pit.
Well covered though I believe you may be wrong on your statement that suicide is not sin. At best it's a sin of ommission, if not commission. Even as a sin I still believe, as stated above, that if one's standing is righteous before God his/her debt is paid even for this act, so one would not be held guilty for this sin as it would have been given to Christ and His death on the cross.
Nowhere is there any mention of this being a sin. Old Testament or New. In Catechism of the Catholic Church, Number 2283 states, "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." So I believe this is not a sin. In Judaism, it is forbidden. Every effort is made to excuse the act however. The Talmud is also very unclear on this subject.
No one has shown me any passages to the contrary. I do believe it is wrong but as for it being a sin, no.
11/22/2011 12:38:07 PM
Originally Posted By dixiedawg:
Glazer is correct. The subject is not directly addressed anywhere in the Bible.
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
Duh, because I read it!
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
It is not in my Bible. If a born again believer jumped they would still be saved. If the person was not a born again believer they would not. I know some of you won't like the sound of that but that is the way it is.
How do you know this is isn't in the Bible?
Duh, because I read it!
Glazer is correct. The subject is not directly addressed anywhere in the Bible.
This.
Aside from man's (fairly Pharasaic) ideas on suicide, its never spoken as some horribly damnable sin. This, like the seven deadly sins are the doctrines of man mistaken for the Word of God
11/22/2011 12:51:07 PM
Deleted.
11/22/2011 6:22:26 PM
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
11/22/2011 6:54:42 PM
Originally Posted By c86man:
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
11/22/2011 7:36:51 PM
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: buse he trusteth in thee.
Originally Posted By c86man:
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: buse he trusteth in thee.
I'm not saying its a worthy act, in fact its incredibly selfish, but I certainly don't see that verse damning a suicidal persons to hell. Again its the very thing Christ spoke against....making up our own rules like the Pharisees. My 2 cents but feel free to cast judgments that were never ours to judge or even know the answer to this side of Heaven
11/22/2011 8:10:18 PM
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Originally Posted By c86man:
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Would you say a mentally ill person who killed them self was going to go to hell? I think most people who kill them selves are probably under so much stress/anguish/pain that they are indeed mentally ill. Of course, there are some who are mentally stable when they commit suicide and God will judge them accordingly. However, I will leave that up to Him, and not place myself in the judgement seat.
11/23/2011 12:46:06 AM
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
I'm not saying its a worthy act, in fact its incredibly selfish, but I certainly don't see that verse damning a suicidal persons to hell. Again its the very thing Christ spoke against....making up our own rules like the Pharisees. My 2 cents but feel free to cast judgments that were never ours to judge or even know the answer to this side of Heaven
Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: buse he trusteth in thee.
Originally Posted By c86man:
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
How could we ever say? If someone is so distraught or emotionally/mentally unstable that they think the only way out is to kill themselves, then only God can judge them.
Do real Christians kill them selves?
Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: buse he trusteth in thee.
I'm not saying its a worthy act, in fact its incredibly selfish, but I certainly don't see that verse damning a suicidal persons to hell. Again its the very thing Christ spoke against....making up our own rules like the Pharisees. My 2 cents but feel free to cast judgments that were never ours to judge or even know the answer to this side of Heaven
Pharisees did more than corrupt the law they also failed to realize that Jesus was the one Isaiah prophesied about though Jesus Christ lying down his life for our sins. He came to fulfil the law. Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”.So though him we can obtain salvation. He left so that the Holy Spirit could come to keep us in perfect peace. Read St John ch3 for the story of Nicodemus (he was a Pharisees)
John3:3-6
3.Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4.Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5.Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The Pharisees did not realize that you just didn’t simply keep the law to obtain salvation ,the law was not to be transgress ,salvation came though faith. The laws purpose was to condemn the lost(sinners).
2 Corinthians 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:”
When did I judge or condemn anyone? I Asked Do real Christians kill them selves? And posted Isaiah 26:3 I didn't even answer ,it was just a question.
If someone is a “Real Christen” Jesus has cleanse you from the inside out.
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.
1 Corinthians 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”
John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly”.
“ the thief”=satan
So if I have Jesus in my life and im standing on his word.... Would I kill myself?... Would Jesus kill himself?
A good friend of mine killed himself about 3 years ago ,and it hurt me I miss that dude. I hope some way some facts of his death are wrong but I cant put him in Heaven or hell.
