Church-State Groups Seek Equal Play For Atheist Concert At Fort Bragg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/fort-braggs-atheist-concert_n_892665.html

Looks to me like the atheist are just whining again, sounds like they only wanted to give a concert because the Christians were going to give one.
typical

It's more complicated than that. The Army helped fund it, and if I remember back to September correctly, if soldiers chose not to attend, they had "duties" to perform while those who chose to attend didn't have any "duties" to attend to.

The complaint is not just from athiests either. There are chistian denominations who don't participate in public prayer for various reasons ranging from not wishing to validate the prayer of say a Buddhist or a Wiccan, to perhaps not being in fellowship with other christian denominations. My denomination for example, rejoices in much of what Billy Graham's crusades profess, but we are in strong disagreement of several points of doctrine. So a soldier who believes as I do must perform duties while some of his tax dollars support religious doctrine he believes is false is being trated fairly?

It's one thing to allow services onboard as long as no one is compelled to attend. It's quite another when people who choose not to attend are given the short end of the stick.

The Army (and the rest of the .mil Services I'm sure) have activities and concerts for a wide range of interests going on all the time.

I've gone to Jazz and Rock concerts on duty days, and those that didn't go to the shows worked.

Should I sue because I had to work when a Rap show was given, and I had to work that day because I can't stand Rap?

Let's keep it respectful please. ~ medicmandan

You missed the point.

"Whine whine whine" Really? We do better than that in this particular forum. I brought up legitimate concerns. This isn't about not attending a Rap concert, it's about the United States government furthering (not just tolerating) a particular style of religion. Our government is supposed to be neutral on religion; it's not supposed to endorse it or denounce it. They did not do this here. Should our Jewish friends be compelled to pay taxes to further a cause that will most likely prosthelytize to them telling them their beliefs are wrong?

What is your intelligent response to this? Do you have one?

I dont see it as them furthing one religon over another.
would the atheist group have a concert if the Christians werent ? If atheist were actually interested in entertaining or doing something for the troops for sake of just doing it I would agree. but they dont and there is no Jewish group that wants to do so either.

I heard about this as well...this is not whining, I for one hear you.

This kind of crap can't be acceptable, not if non-attendance is going to carry consequences, and not if it's paid for with Army funds...

As has been pointed out in GD when this was posted, the Army isn't furthering a particular style of religion. The Army has even *GASP* had Jewish and Muslim functions! Plus many different cultural shows.

I don't remember anymore about this incident, (it did happen a year or two ago) but most functions like this are payed for by using NAF (Non Appropriated Funds) which do NOT come from the taxpayer pocket. This money comes from the Morale Welfare and Recreation funds that are received from surcharges from the PX and Commissary, and from fees at the on-post recreation facilities.

Frankly, it is whining. The whole thing was started by some Atheist that whined because they had to work while the people that went to the concert didn't. As I pointed out, that is nothing special, or any sort of 'punishment' being handed out. The people that went to the concert were at their assigned duty location, and those that didn't go, went to their assigned duty locations.

.

Thank you. THIS is the kind of information that can change my mind. IF indeed this was the source of funding, then I have no complaint. TAX money is something completely different.

FWIW, this is the difference from the GD forum. Thank you.

& you know this how ?

I know of an atheist group that does all sorts of things that church groups "lay claim to" in order to prove you don't have to be a believer to be a good person.

Expecting equal treatment is not whining.

This has been going on since before I was in the military. If you went to church, no workee. Stay in the barracks = you got shit to do.

There is an atheist group that gives concerts or offers entertainment to the military ?
any links ? proof of that ?

Not what I said, but nice try Walt. This is an organization that helps out in the community, & just so happens to be an atheist organization.

http://www.atheist-community.org/flagship/

I listen to the radio show & watch the podcasts.... Mainly, but I think they make a good showing for atheists to prove that we aren't all dicks.

I dont think all atheist are dicks, seems like you have some kind of complex about that
we were talking about a concert at Fort Bragg.
thanks for the link

i didn't say that you did, but the general impression I get from most believers is that we are, basically because we want things to be equal for everyone.

I said they were whiners, in this instance they are.

I have issue with this. Does the military have "Athiest" chaplains? No, they don't. Because at it's core, athiesm is the belief in the lack of God and chaplains have to be part of an organized religion. If the military can pay the salary of the chaplain, the military should be able to endorse the specific religion having a function. Whatever the religion may be. Athisests can't come up with a God, thats your own darn fault. Leave us alone.

If I remember correctly the issues with the original concert were as follows:



1) It was NOT an event funded or promoted by the Chaplain's office; it was a high ranking officer's pet project to promote religion.

2) The program originally claimed it was for all religions and would have other concerts... but they only promoted one type of faith.

3) Attendance was mandatory. Soldiers could leave after they marched to the concert but they would be sent to work.



In my opinion this new development is an attempt to show that the Army is still doing the same thing.... promoting only one religion, in violation of not just the First Amendment but also in violation of military regulations.


and yes, I have seen attempts in the military to silence other faiths:

1) One of my friends was directly ordered to not practice his religion on board his ship. He ignored the order since the chain of command would pretty much screw themselves over if they sent him to NJP over it, cos it would open an interesting legal case.

2) On another ship they only allowed religious functions to be held in the chapel... but only specific religions were given permission to use the chapel - thus any religion the command didn't like was barred from practicing.

3) On my last ship they allowed other religions to practice, provided the representative of the faith could provide proof of sponsorship. And they were regulated to the library instead of the chapel. Interestingly, approved religions did not have to provide sponsorship proof.

Logical fallacy. If attendance was mandatory, how could they leave to go to work. As has been explained already, if they wanted to stay at the concert it was their place of duty at that time. IF they did not go to the concert, they went to their normal place of duty.

You may want to re-read what I wrote.

[quote=me]Soldiers could leave after they marched to the concert but they would be sent to work.[/quote]

Therefore no failure on my part.
They had to arrive at the concert but did not have to stay - however the only other option was work punishment.

Now I'm quite aware of "mandatory fun" - my first ship did that a lot. However it was for picnics - NOT religious functions where some non-chaplain decided it was his duty to convert us all to his chosen faith.

out of

I think you need to review your definitions a little bit there.

So if the rolls were reversed, & it was an athiest function that they went to , but were allowed to leave & go back to cleaning the barracks, or cleaning weapons, or scrubbing shitters somewhee, you'd be ok with that ?

Help me out. What is athiesm at it's core.

ETA-Athiesm-the theory or belief that god does not exist. Ok, what so off about what I said about athiesm at it's core? The belief in the lack of god? What is the cemantic difference between the lack of a god and the belief that god deos not exist.

BTW this is the only definition I have included in my post.

You include belief in there as if atheism is a religion. Atheism is not the "belief that there is no god" atheism is the "rejection of the belief in (any) god(s)."

I may be splitting hairs a bit, but there is a difference. Semantically.

You do realize that you are arguing with the dictionary definition. How often do you bag on people of belief for not getting their definitions right? What's that old adage about glass houses? Or does this not apply to you?

Probably be about 6 people show up if they did.

And he answers the post about whining with more whining.


Our government is supposed to be neutral on Religion? Where does it say that in the constitution or it's amendments?

Try reading the 1st Amendment to that pesky little Constitution we have. Religion is the first topic before speach, assembly, press. Must be pretty important to be first. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion... (emphasis added) That means nothing positive nor negative; hence neutral. Government is to be SILENT on the issue. No law, remember?

Are you going to argue there is no right to privacy since that isn't enumerated? That right is inferred from the 4th.

Where is the right to travel mentioned? The right to vote?

Stop your rhetoric and come up with a coherent argument. Until then... Dismissed!

The 1st amendment makes that clear AND if you read the writings of that Madison fellow(the guy who WROTE the darn thing), he makes it VERY VERY clear that the governmnet was to NOT get involved in faith. He also made it VERY clear that one sect of any faith was to never have "preferred" status over another. Our founders may have been overwhelmingly Christian, however, they understood that there were other faiths in the world..and to not respect and give them the same due as their would be majorly hypocritical. You know..that thing that Jefferson said about there being no big deal if others have multiple gods...

The .gov should be neutral and give all established faiths respect as long as the faith is not breaking US law when under our jurisdiction. Sorry..no faith should be held in higher esteem above others.

I assume when the USO gives a show the same terms are given to service members, if you don't want to go to the function just do your regular duties.
Does anyone complain about that ?

ITT: Atheists being pissed that religious folk get to give a pro-religion concert and religious folk pretending they wouldn't be pissed if Atheists got to give an anti-religion concert

I don't know, I never went to a USO show.

I do know that if I didn't go to church, there was crap to do.

From what I understand, USO isn't one of those "mandatory fun" type things.

I've been in since 1986. Those who chose not to go to church, you had free time. This was true at Parris Island, the Naval Academy, and every place I have been stationed. If you did not have duty, you were off. If you had duty but were religious, some reasonable accomodation was made, but you still had to stand duty.

LOL

One problem with this is that the soldiers were rewarded for attending a religious event (no work) and punished if they left (work).

No reason not to be able to do the same with a jewish, muslim, hindu, atheist, pastafarian etc. concert.

Boot.... I went in in 85

Anyway, maybe it was different for squids, but if you didn't go to church in boot, you had shit to do.

My first bootcamp was Parris Island. I've worn both uniforms. If you did not go to church, you had free time.

I don't quite remember it like that.... But I didn't go to the Island either.

Sundays typically didn't have assigned work- If you had watch station duty.....you did it. If not, you were off. If you had services on Saturday or Sunday and you cared.....you went. That was it (Navy). My son is in the Army and he said that is about the same. If he was on patrol some said a prayer together during a break.

If it was during the normal work week (M-F) and there would be issues attending during work hours.....then yes. Those that went, would not work. Those that didn't go, would work. I also wouldn't have a problem with atheists going to a meeting during the week but it does seem pointless to have a religious concert for atheists IMHO....I am a christian and I probably wouldn't have gone to the concert as I do not in general like that type of music. I prefer hymns.

First Amendment rights actually encourage your choice and advocate the SUPPORT of your right to worship or NOT worship as you deem right. This is key here. Not a specific religion but any or none supported by the government even though the founders were Judeo-Christian, they supported those who were not completely.

The idea behind it was....

" I am (this): but I allow and will fight for your right to worship as (this)"

And as the Government

"You are (this); we allow and support your right to worship as (this) as long as the Laws of this land are not broken"

This is NOT neutral; this is active government action. Advocating a specific religion OVER another is not right.

Now as Christian concerts are generally non denominational...it was a general concert. So it was not advocating a specific religion. Allowing those who were of those who were christian to go instead of work was allowable. I have seen Jewish faiths allowed to go to Shavitz on Saturday, or a Muslim to fast during the day during Ramadan. It all works out. If you do not believe in God, then that also is your choice. I support you in your choice.

I do say, however, do NOT interfere with my choice...



(edit: Huffington Post is an Uber Liberal rag fully advocating the overthrow and undermining the capitalistic society we have created and their people are very anti- religion...I have heard mention of Christians as possible terrorists and a menace to society even though they would NOT call Jihadist Terrorists terrorists....supported by George Soros...an anti American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian.)

Exactly what is an athiest themed rock concert anyway? It seems that any regular rock concert would be secular...how can they make it more secular? It reminds me of the old Sam Kinison bit: "Rock against drugs...rock CREATED drugs!"

Yes. I believe you have it there Doc.....

lol.......same thing I was wondering.

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