With Pat Rogers and Stewart Rhodes ...

...how could I procrastinate any longer?! I finally got off my arse and subscribed.

Thanks to all y'all for your honesty and insight.


Plus it will save me the time, aggravation and fuel I spent to go fetch it every month.



Edited to correct my most egregious misspelling. The "d" has been, and forever will be, banned from the gentleman's last name. (way to get started on the WRONG foot)

SWAT is without a doubt my favorite mag.

Pat Rogers is a great writer and instructor, but this point has got to be made:

The guy who trained Yasir Arafat's Force 17 terrorist force.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies408.htm

The POWnet thing is of no credibility, since it is all third party reports and does not have in anyway reflect what Pat said or wrote himself. It seems that he was teaching through various organizations and they put either inaccurate versions of his background. Find me instances on Pat's websites or his posts where he has made any claims. What you are trying to do, and failing to do is use these third party reports as his own words.

As far as training Arafat's bodyguards, again it comes from a questionable source. If you believe that article you also believe that a Kimber Ultra Elite is the Ferrari of handguns.

Pat has done work with Government agencies and he continues to do so. So if he did instruct any of Arafat's bodyguard's it was under the direction and approval of the State Department. Also keep in mind that at one time Arafat was invited by this country as a guest. The fact is, Pat still teaches US Military units under Government contracts, and he would not be able to do so if he had been teaching Arafat's bodyguards without offical approval or the exagerations that Pownet accuses him of. Do you think the Marine Recon would continue to employ him as an outside instructor if he had actually been fabricating anything about his background with that group?

I would love to see some of these nameless online stalkers make their allegations to Pat's face.

Here is the article by Craig Horowitz Published Jan 8, 2001.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/4259/

Fixed the "d" in the OP

You arent the brightest bulb, are you? Dont answer that, its rhetorical.

This article is in that piece of shit you link to earlier, you'd know that if you read it. Then again, asking you to read might be asking too much. It boils down to nothing more than an author making assumption, and in this case, those assumptions are making an ass out of you, and only you.


Now, I know you are on M4Carbine.net, and thats great, its a damn good forum. I know that Pat Rogers isnt welcomed there anymore. I also know that the thread on M4Carbine.net's General Discussion Forum about this subject was locked because even the staff there found it to be bullshit. So stop trolling the SWAT Magaizine Forum with your nonsense and pettyness.

I don't post on m4carbine. Maybe a couple of posts over a year ago.

I did have the displeasure of having Pat Rogers as an instructor at Gunsite. Seems he didn't last long at Gunsite after instructing that class.

Fail-Safe, I hope I get the chance to meet you someday.

I appreciate a man that stands up for others.

He was never a full time instructor at Gunsite. He like many other taught there on a part time short term basis. So it was not a matter of him not lasting there. More unsubstantiated BS that proves you clearly do not know wht you are talking about.

Amazing these anonymous people who parrot baseless allegations about Pat Rogers.

I don't think a single one of them would be willing to say those to the man face to face.

I read through the site you posted. I know several Force Recon Marines who speak nothing but praise for him and his instruction. Additionally, I am a former Inspector-Instructor for the Marines Corps (active duty Marine assigned to Marine Forces Reserve, to train, mentor and inspect Reserve Marines), many of the attacks on him are taken way out of context by those don't understand what they are reading in his records. The SMCR is a different world than the AD Marines Corps, and you cannot look at SMCR Marines records without having worked in the world and really understand what you are reading. Case in point DD214s, many reservists have done schools, training periods and ADSW (Active Duty for Special Work) that aren't listed on their DD-214. Unless you did long term active duty, you don't get a DD-214, prior to the war it was not unusual for a SMCR reservist to retire from the reserves with only having a DD-214 from when he went to initially training and nothing more; so it was very likely they were MOS qualified and had awards not reflected in a DD-214.

Why do some people feel the need to constantly have these arguments about trainers out there?

Thanks you. It would seem that Pownetwork doesn't know what the hell they are talking about in Pat Rogers case. Maybe they should stick to POWs.

Thanks, Ridgedog. I hate to see a good man get slandered by people who clearly don't know what they are talking about and would would never have the stones to say to the man's face.

Dates, my friend. Have we met?

One of Pat Rogers biggest online critics, Kevin McClung, AKA Mad Dog, has never served a day in the military or Law Enforcement, but claims to have been a CIA weapons designer and hitman who was recruited by the CIA at 14:

From:
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Genius-Child-Prodigy-Shadow/dp/1561291420/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235870560&sr=1-1
From Kirkus Reviews

Spellbinding autobiography of a child prodigy––gifted in the black arts of weaponry––who enters the shadow world of international-arms sales. Raised in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 60's, McClung was the son of an aeronautical engineering genius and gave early proof of his own prodigious grip on ``mechanix'' by secretly building a complex electric rifle when he was four. McClung was accepted by the Bay area's genius education program for ``Mentally Gifted Minors,'' whose special scientific projects were constantly sifted by the CIA for ideas––with the best projects (including McClung's vest for bugging and eavesdropping) stolen and passed on to CIA scientists. At 14, McClung met OSS-CIA master spy John Colling, who taught him the basics of spy-craft. Then falconer and top CIA assassin Ray Goodreau taught him about falconry and animal training, unconventional weapons, and commando tactics; McClung had already shaped his body into a lethal weapon through the martial arts. Goodreau also sharpened him into a remorseless anticommunist death-dealer. Eventually, McClung fell in with Marty Rhymer, a CIA wire-man, and Gabe Margolis, a boorish Mossad commando, who together had formed Amida Ltd., later a CIA secret business whose cover was selling weapons, uniforms and support gear to California law enforcement agencies but which quickly became a feast of international arms dealing. McClung refined a new Diplomat poison- tipped pen-gun, and, with his deadly book-gun (a copy of The Book of the Dead that fired bullets) and always accurate laser rifle, etc., etc. (diagrams for many of the weapons are given), became the company's chief inventor of killer ``toys.'' Then Ibriham Haddad, fat and perfumed king of arms dealers, invaded Amida and took it over, adding his own poison to Amida's already irredeemably corrupt juices. When Amida set up McClung to be assassinated, he hid out in the wilds for three years and abandoned dealing death downward from the top of the food chain. The rotten underbelly of US Intelligence, grippingly sliced open. Film rights sold. –– Copyright ©1991, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.

The Gunsite course I took in which Pat Rogers was one of the instructors was in 2000.

Not sure if we have met.

innocent_Bystander


So basically you can't run a AR for shit, He tried to teach you and failed cause your a rock and he hurt your feelings in the process with his use of big boy rules to keep you from shooting yourself or someone else in the class... now it's all coming together..

And now you have joined a small group of the "I hate Pat Roger's cause he was mean to me" fan club and spend all your time trying to drag his name in the mud to make yourself feel better... Your pathetic..

Nope was a pistol class, Masters 250. Pat was teaching the 1911 group of the class. I was in the other group. I was shooting a Glock 35. We all had class/lecture time together.

I believe that was the last class Cooper did the lecture for. Pat got bent out of shape at me after the class because I posted on (maybe Glocktalk?) that Cooper's lecture was geared toward 1976 not 2000. That upset Pat so he said he was going to have Gunsite yank the E-Ticket I earned in the class.

As a result of Pat's antics I cancelled two other Gunsite classes I had scheduled and a bunch of other people I knew did as well. Gunsite never contacted me. I heard that Pat lost his welcome at Gunsite not long after that but I have no idea what the circumstances were.

Should we talk about Pat's false accusations against my friends at Cavalry Arms next?

As for the link, I have no idea who put that together. I have seen it posted on several websites. The part I find most alarming is that a reporter suggests that Pat trained Arafat's personal body guards.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/3/Force%2017%20Background%20Material%20-%20March%202001

Pat taught his last class at Gunsite in the summer of 2005.

First, the source of this claim is a magazine article that claims that the Kimber is the Ferarri of handguns. So I don't put to much stock in it.

Second, if Pat did instruct Arafat's bodyguards, he did so under the directions of the state department and US Government. Otherwise, he would not be able to continue teaching military classes as he does. If you want to be upset, be upset at the US government for offering instructions to Arafat's bodyguards.

Do you think the Marines would continue to use an instructor that lied about his Marine background if there were any credibility tothose claims?

Why not repeat yourself a few more times.

I really wish this forum could be kept free of the GD tripe. I believe this is considered a "tech" forum, so the drop in unsupported accusations are not welcome here. I will be taking my first Rogers class this spring and regardless of who he has trained, I have picked up invaluable info from him through his SWAT articles. I've personally attended a 10-8 consulting class sponsored by Defensive Edge last summer and it was top notch. I'd expect nothing less from the 10-8 class Pat is teaching this spring. Now, let's keep the rest of these comments relevant and professional, please. If you have something else to say about Pat Rogers political ideas or have a personal bone to pic with him, please present it in a factual manner evidenced by supporting documentation. Otherwise, keep your "hearsay" comments to yourself.

As long as you show up with a positive attitude, and you're willing to at least try new things, you will have a great time in Pat's class. Well, that and you're not some nancy boy that gets upset if critiqued like an adult.

I see too many people in classes that have no idea how far in over their heads they are. The vast majority of attendees "don't know what they don't know."

LOL drivel

The allegations at that site REEK of manure.

I have never met Pat and I have no relationship with the man personally or professionally....but I have yet to hear anyone with a spotless reputation express agreement with anything on that site.

I've never personally met Rogers. I've just observed his less than professional conduct on the gun boards. (I know I know.... you can say I'm not the most professional guy in the internuts, but I'm not a big name instructor either.) Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't train under him if the ammo and tuition were free.

None of the instructors I've trained under would ever conduct themselves the way Rogers does on public forums.

From reading the way he treats people on the boards, I get the impression that he's got that typical East Coast LE attitude combined with Little Man's syndrome. He's really nice to you if your kissing his ass on the gun boards, and you buy all the products that he gets for free to promote.

I get the impression that many of his cult followers like to name drop that they've completed a Rogers class as though it was like completing Ranger School or some shit. But I guess that's also true of some of the more classy instructors out there too.

Yes, I did lock it. Seemed like bullshit then, still seems like bullshit now.

I just want to point out that there was another thread about another big name instructor on a different board that also claimed the instructor was totally FOS. None of the people on that board who had such things to say about that particular instructor had personally taken a class with or from him. None had addressed the complaints about him personally with him. Shortly thereafter, I took a class with this instructor and found it to be highly valuable. Do I agree with everything that was taught to me? No. Can I respect and understand it? Absolutely. That class opened my mind to a lot of different views on shooting and made me a better student and a better shooter.

That said, I look forward to taking a 3-day Rogers class in May. If I don't learn anything and find all these negative comments to be true, then you will see me post on this or another thread about my experience. Up until that point, I'm just another internet commando who has never met the man nor verified whether or not he has trained Palestinians.

I challenge anyone with negative comments about Pat to take one of his classes or e-mail him personally with your gripe.

A lot of negative things are said about most of the bigger name trainers out there. Yeager, Suarez and others all have their nay-sayers. But if you listen to what they actually have to say and filter out what you perceive to be bullshit, then you might actually learn something.

So you really know nothing about him, except maybe he slapped your peepee online. But that doesn't stop you from making snide remarks and spreading inaccurate shit whenever his name comes up. I guarantee you that you would not have the stones to say to him face to face the stuff you say online.



Now you are just projecting nonsense. Have you ever had any professional firearms training?

To be honest, claiming someone's training methodology is flawed is peanuts compared to trying to smear someone with false allegations, trumped up claims attributed to his writing, claims of falsified records, etc...

I might not agree that shooting from your back with your pelvic girdle exposed to the threat is a good idea, but that doesn't mean I'd go so far as trying to make stuff up to degrade the person doing the training in that way.

Why is that?

Since when have you seen a negative discussion about a trainer, ever come from someone who's actually attended the class?

Publicly? Not very often, as the instructors carry guns too, and they usually shoot better then most donkeys on the internet forum board who would post about it.

Not really the point I was making though. I might not agree with what Group A teaches for X scenario with a pistol, and might say that Instructor Y was full of shit in teaching scenario X. However, that is not the same as attempting to discredit Instructor Y by digging up his DD214, his private sector commendations, his articles, his friendships, his interactions with various military groups, his unattributed pictures, and piece them together in a stalker site, trying to tear him down and claim him a liar, a fraud, a hack, or some other sort of vermin...

Which is what that site is trying to do to Pat Rogers. I thought it was bullshit when the POWNet site was posted at M4C, and I still think it's bullshit now. The stories have not gotten more concrete, they have spun off even more. Leaving more and more to the imagination of the reader. Expecting the relatively ignorant public audience to jump these huge chasms of what was written on the site vs. what really happened.

Pat might be a lot of things, but I just don't have him pegged as a fraud, or perpetrator of a fraud. If I did, I certainly would never have trained with him, nor would I have written this response defending him.

As to why he is no longer posting at M4C:

Pat made some "unprofessional" remarks about the mods and staff of M4C on another gun/tactics forum. These comments were brought to his attention and he was given the chance to make a private apology. He declined to do so.

His training classes are still advertised on M4C and the mods, staff and owners of M4C still believe that he is a good instructor and frequently recommend him to new shooters.

Since we are all grown men, and the internet is a big place, he posts elsewhere –– and M4C is Ok with that.

There is quite the negative thread at www.tacticalforums.com in the " Tactical Training & AAR's " section. I do find that site a bit weird and almost cult like.

There was a mass exodus from TF after the site's owner and a couple of his little friends went after Pat on all this nonsense. Most of the posters who made that a valuable site have gone elsewhere in protest of the nonsense perpetrated by that silly little group who decided to go after Pat. That's what I call a "clue".

Since this is the S.W.A.T. Magazine forum, and not the National Enquirer forum, this one has veered off track long enough.

witch hunt

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