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Pat Rogers' May Article - Pre-Engagement Sequencing - A Must Read For Everyone
4/4/2006 6:13:09 PM
I feel that it should be mandatory requirement for anyone that owns a battle rifle should have to read Pat's latest article in SWAT Magazine prior to receiving said rifle. My hats off to Pat and SWAT for running the article. Excellent Work!
Bigfeet
4/19/2006 7:47:26 PM
Great article. I will do things in his order now. I think I did before, but now I will focus on doing it consistently.
4/19/2006 9:25:52 PM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: Great article. I will do things in his order now. I think I did before, but now I will focus on doing it consistently. |
Train like you fight.
Bigfeet
4/19/2006 9:32:07 PM
Originally Posted By Bigfeet:
Train like you fight. Bigfeet |
Yep. Only now I am gonna always do shit in the same order, so I don't miss a step.
4/20/2006 9:27:37 AM
I agree, one of the best articles I've read in a while. One thing I did not understand, though. Rogers says that after loading your pistol, you should drop the mag and replace it with a full one so you have that extra round if you really need it. Fine by me, that's what I do anyway, as I'm sure do most shooters.
However, he doesn't recommend the same thing for the rifle, which is your primary weapon (unless I somehow missed it in the article). Why would you go to that trouble for your secondary weapon, but not your primary?
I can understand downloading the mag to 28 rounds to avoid malfunctions - I'd prefer a smooth running rifle over two extra rounds any day of the week - but the different standards for different weapons confuses me.
4/20/2006 9:29:49 AM
Originally Posted By AvengeR15: I agree, one of the best articles I've read in a while. One thing I did not understand, though. Rogers says that after loading your pistol, you should drop the mag and replace it with a full one so you have that extra round if you really need it. Fine by me, that's what I do anyway, as I'm sure do most shooters. However, he doesn't recommend the same thing for the rifle, which is your primary weapon (unless I somehow missed it in the article). Why would you go to that trouble for your secondary weapon, but not your primary? I can understand downloading the mag to 28 rounds to avoid malfunctions - I'd prefer a smooth running rifle over two extra rounds any day of the week - but the different standards for different weapons confuses me. |
pat's a 1911 fan so 1 round in 7-8 is a big deal.
one round in 28-30 is not.
ed to ask..
not to jump on Pat but did he say anything new? or is he just rehashing things that have been said said 1000 times before?
4/20/2006 10:03:16 AM
Originally Posted By hk940: not to jump on Pat but did he say anything new? or is he just rehashing things that have been said said 1000 times before? |
It's probably all been said by somebody somewhere before, but does it matter? It'll be new to a lot of people, and as people have noted above not all have seen it all in one place or coalesced it into a single checklist.
4/21/2006 1:59:56 PM
I'm not speaking for anyone else (especially the author of the article in question), but just consder the primary reason why you download AR mags to 28 rounds. It's not because your gun won't run with a full mag (and in fact, if it won't, either you gun or your magazine need some work). The reason is to make it easier to seat the magazine when the bolt is forward. Will a mag seat when loaded with 30? In most guns, yes, but for many guns it takes a lot of extra force and it's obviously not as reliable as just downloading 2 rounds and leaving enough slack space in the mag to seat the mag more easily.
By contrast, all 7 and most 8 round magazines for 1911s have enough slack that you can load them to capacity and still seat them reliably. It's also easier to seat a pistol mag in general, just based on the relative sizes and geometries involved. There is no good reason to download.
The practice is based on the nature of the individual beast.
By contrast, all 7 and most 8 round magazines for 1911s have enough slack that you can load them to capacity and still seat them reliably. It's also easier to seat a pistol mag in general, just based on the relative sizes and geometries involved. There is no good reason to download.
The practice is based on the nature of the individual beast.
Originally Posted By AvengeR15: I agree, one of the best articles I've read in a while. One thing I did not understand, though. Rogers says that after loading your pistol, you should drop the mag and replace it with a full one so you have that extra round if you really need it. Fine by me, that's what I do anyway, as I'm sure do most shooters. However, he doesn't recommend the same thing for the rifle, which is your primary weapon (unless I somehow missed it in the article). Why would you go to that trouble for your secondary weapon, but not your primary? I can understand downloading the mag to 28 rounds to avoid malfunctions - I'd prefer a smooth running rifle over two extra rounds any day of the week - but the different standards for different weapons confuses me. |
4/23/2006 3:06:25 AM
The pre engagement sequence is not done by most shooters as most shooters lack the Mentality required.
I have been in several classes and have witnessed exactly what Pat describes. I watched a shooter who is not used to having a loaded pistol on a range make ready for a carbine drill. I stood behind him and looked at the empty mag well on his 1911... I thought to myself "Watch this, he's gonna forget to tac relaod between drills and he's gonna go to a transition like he was taught, and be in for a big surprise.
Sure enough, his primary went down (he did not tac load during a lull in the last drill) and when he drew his blaster he heard the loudest sound you can hear.... the hammer dropping on a empty chamber..........
Make ready means turning the "switch " on , getting in your"zone" and putting on your "gameface" if your in your zone, you are not distracted, you are focused like a lazer and you are ready to "get it on" I watch quite a few shooters who can be easily distracted on the line and do not have the correct focus. These are usally the shooters who run Empty and pull empty secondary weapons that go click........
Like was said above... nothing new or earthshattering... just basic stuff 101 that a lot of shooters don't grasp Another Excellent article from Pat...........
I have been in several classes and have witnessed exactly what Pat describes. I watched a shooter who is not used to having a loaded pistol on a range make ready for a carbine drill. I stood behind him and looked at the empty mag well on his 1911... I thought to myself "Watch this, he's gonna forget to tac relaod between drills and he's gonna go to a transition like he was taught, and be in for a big surprise.
Sure enough, his primary went down (he did not tac load during a lull in the last drill) and when he drew his blaster he heard the loudest sound you can hear.... the hammer dropping on a empty chamber..........
Make ready means turning the "switch " on , getting in your"zone" and putting on your "gameface" if your in your zone, you are not distracted, you are focused like a lazer and you are ready to "get it on" I watch quite a few shooters who can be easily distracted on the line and do not have the correct focus. These are usally the shooters who run Empty and pull empty secondary weapons that go click........
Like was said above... nothing new or earthshattering... just basic stuff 101 that a lot of shooters don't grasp Another Excellent article from Pat...........
4/24/2006 4:12:49 PM
Originally Posted By Harv24: The pre engagement sequence is not done by most shooters as most shooters lack the Mentality required. I have been in several classes and have witnessed exactly what Pat describes. I watched a shooter who is not used to having a loaded pistol on a range make ready for a carbine drill. I stood behind him and looked at the empty mag well on his 1911... I thought to myself "Watch this, he's gonna forget to tac relaod between drills and he's gonna go to a transition like he was taught, and be in for a big surprise. Sure enough, his primary went down (he did not tac load during a lull in the last drill) and when he drew his blaster he heard the loudest sound you can hear.... the hammer dropping on a empty chamber.......... Make ready means turning the "switch " on , getting in your"zone" and putting on your "gameface" if your in your zone, you are not distracted, you are focused like a lazer and you are ready to "get it on" I watch quite a few shooters who can be easily distracted on the line and do not have the correct focus. These are usally the shooters who run Empty and pull empty secondary weapons that go click........ Like was said above... nothing new or earthshattering... just basic stuff 101 that a lot of shooters don't grasp Another Excellent article from Pat........... |
I agree 100% with this post and the article was very well recived by me, as well. A must read, IMO for anyone who carries a gun for training, protection or otherwise.
4/24/2006 4:30:53 PM
I was there...the guy in question really thinks he is hot shit,too.
4/24/2006 6:23:39 PM
Originally Posted By modog: I was there...the guy in question really thinks he is hot shit,too. |
You were at the shoot where the article photos were taken?
4/24/2006 6:54:34 PM
Originally Posted By hk940: ed to ask.. not to jump on Pat but did he say anything new? or is he just rehashing things that have been said said 1000 times before? |
It's nothing new but the critical nature of performing both primary and secondary weapon status check bears repeating 1000 x 1000 times. Status check was emphasized in my first class but *the light truly came on* in my first handgun/carbine class with Randy Cain.
Prior to the start of a two man team drill you had to perform a primary/secondary status check. At the end of the drill you had to tac reload. The significance of which is that there is another person (partner / spouse / buddy / S.O.) DEPENDING on you to be there with a loaded weapon if theirs goes down.
If SWAT magazine could *tack* articles in each issue the way we tack important threads on these message boards, Pat's article should be at or near the top.
4/24/2006 7:16:50 PM
most combat vets do this already. and most seasoned grunts develop a routine through endless repetitive training even if they never see combat. it takes a long time to develop such systems and having an instructor start you out thinking that way really gives you a leg up.
as always, Gunner Rogers lessons are good to go.
as always, Gunner Rogers lessons are good to go.
4/24/2006 8:44:22 PM
Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
You were at the shoot where the article photos were taken? |
No, no..I was there for the thing Harv was talking about. Later in the day, he(the guy Harv was referring to) tried to stuff a 1911 magazine into his carbine during a speed reloading drill
. But I'm just some asshole.4/25/2006 1:06:28 AM
Originally Posted By DvlDog: most combat vets do this already. |
A lot of people who are not combat vets do it too, as part of their daily routine.
I'm one of those guys that checks both pistolas as he's getting dressed, as it's a part of getting dressed. Chamber, then magazine, then back on "safe" and into the holster, time two. I also check my other gear (like giving the flashlights a pump to make sure they work, etc.).
It's all part of the day's mental checklist.
From what I've seen in various classes, the people who have the most trouble with the "making ready" are those who don't routinely carry guns as part of their life. The chance of me being on the line in such a class without at least one loaded gun on my person is zero.
The order in which one "makes ready" when more than one gun is in play is sometimes new to even those who are good at being ready. The idea of making sure the sidearm is ready to go first, then doing the same for the long is gun makes a lot of sense, and many instructors teach exactly that. It's not intuitively obvious ... until someone 'splains it to you.
I even have a thorough routine for the "load and make ready" command during various shooting matches. A lot of shooters never bother to check the chamber, or tug on the magazine to make sure it is seated. Those same people are sometimes surprised by clicks when they expect bangs. I always load my Barney Bullet, reload with a full magazine, check the chamber for a loaded round, tug on the magazine to make sure it's seated, and then put it "on" safe and holster.
4/25/2006 1:57:31 AM
Originally Posted By modog:
No, no..I was there for the thing Harv was talking about. Later in the day, he(the guy Harv was referring to) tried to stuff a 1911 magazine into his carbine during a speed reloading drill . But I'm just some asshole. |
Was that the Albion, MI course last summer?
4/25/2006 12:02:26 PM
nope...IN
4/25/2006 5:23:44 PM
Originally Posted By stony275:
Was that the Albion, MI course last summer? |
I know who you are thinking about though...
Bigfeet
4/27/2006 9:18:28 AM
Originally Posted By modog: I was there...the guy in question really thinks he is hot shit,too. |
Was this the guy that had "solved the mag follower problem" amongst other ntoable attributes??
4/29/2006 3:09:16 AM
Originally Posted By AvengeR15: I agree, one of the best articles I've read in a while. One thing I did not understand, though. Rogers says that after loading your pistol, you should drop the mag and replace it with a full one so you have that extra round if you really need it. Fine by me, that's what I do anyway, as I'm sure do most shooters. However, he doesn't recommend the same thing for the rifle, which is your primary weapon (unless I somehow missed it in the article). Why would you go to that trouble for your secondary weapon, but not your primary? I can understand downloading the mag to 28 rounds to avoid malfunctions - I'd prefer a smooth running rifle over two extra rounds any day of the week - but the different standards for different weapons confuses me. |
You could load your primary magazine for your M-4 to capacity, do an administrative load, strip the mag and top it off. The issue would be not mixing up that one mag with all of your other 28 rounders. It is just easier to keep them all at 28 and avoid the confusion. The important thing is to have a system that works and is proven.
You will have different standards when dealing with different weapons. An AK for example does not have the mag seating issue that an AR does. AK mags should be carried right side up due to the "lip" at the top. AR mags are better carried upside down for ease of manipulation.
4/29/2006 9:16:25 AM
Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
Was this the guy that had "solved the mag follower problem" amongst other ntoable attributes?? |
That, I don't recall. IM inbound, though..
4/30/2006 6:45:13 AM
Is this in the May issue? I have not seen it yet but I am deployed have to check the PX again. I go there almost everyday. It is odd seeing people with guns everywhere and no one holding up cash registers.
I have the wife sending me the Aprial and March mags now so I have not read those.
I have the wife sending me the Aprial and March mags now so I have not read those.
4/30/2006 6:59:21 AM
Anybody care to give the short and sweet version? I just finished up my first civvie rifle class and am curious if there's something different in this.
4/30/2006 8:22:14 AM
Originally Posted By ffhounddog: Is this in the May issue? I have not seen it yet but I am deployed have to check the PX again. I go there almost everyday. It is odd seeing people with guns everywhere and no one holding up cash registers. I have the wife sending me the Aprial and March mags now so I have not read those. |
Yes Sir, it is in the May issue. If you have any trouble getting one, let me know and I will send some.
Bigfeet
4/30/2006 1:58:55 PM
I have not seen it on the shelfs and I just re read the topic and its right there. I will look for it in the next few days and if I do not see it I might take you up on the offer. Thanks!
4/30/2006 8:14:51 PM
Originally Posted By Bigfeet:
Yes Sir, it is in the May issue. If you have any trouble getting one, let me know and I will send some. Bigfeet |
Where can one subscribe to this magazine? Bigfeet, if you have an extra copy of the May issue I would be happy to buy one from you.
5/1/2006 11:05:34 AM
Originally Posted By unclez: Where can one subscribe to this magazine? |
Subscription page at swatmag.com
5/1/2006 11:56:46 AM
Originally Posted By unclez:
Where can one subscribe to this magazine? Bigfeet, if you have an extra copy of the May issue I would be happy to buy one from you. |
I will make a run to the local bookstore today. I need to pick up some other books anyway. PM me where you need the mags sent to, and if you need anything else...
Bigfeet
5/1/2006 12:06:42 PM
Good article. Sometimes people overlook the crucial basics.
5/3/2006 1:56:04 PM
Originally Posted By Bigfeet:
I will make a run to the local bookstore today. I need to pick up some other books anyway. PM me where you need the mags sent to, and if you need anything else... Bigfeet |
Bigfeet, sent you an IM concerning the May issue.
5/3/2006 5:40:04 PM
Originally Posted By unclez:
Bigfeet, sent you an IM concerning the May issue. |
Got it. I will get it out when I get back home later this week...
Bigfeet
5/3/2006 5:49:51 PM
Much appreciated Bigfeet. Not many would go to the trouble. Send me your mailing address or possibly a Paypal address I will get the money for the issue out to you.
5/3/2006 5:50:08 PM
Tag for home!
