Just finished the Appleseed Shoot in Tullahoma, TN. Took Mrs. Usagi, too. In fact, it was she who convinced me to go. Here's some info, for those who want it.

First, I will not repeat all of the information you might find on the Appleseed web site. But here are some things that would seem obvious, but I still saw people have trouble with:
1. Know your rifle.
2. Use the same ammo to sight in your rifle as you will shoot with (I didn't and the difference was over 2" at 25 meters).
3. If you need glasses to see, you will likely need a scope to hope to shoot "Rifleman." There are some exceptions here, but anyone with an astigmatism will need the magnification.
4. Most people - including experienced shooters - will not make "Rifleman." It is inherently more difficult than you think.
5. Monarch ammo out of a Bushmaster - over 500 rounds - no jams. Fairly accurate.
6. Using a sling will affect your POI on an AR15! This is despite what one of the instructors insisted!


Some good stuff about Appleseed shoots:
- Mrs. Usagi learned a lot the first day. She learned her rifle, how to shoot from the three different positions, and a lot from the history section.
- You will learn how to shoot prone.
- There are many like-minded individuals there to shoot with you.
- Some of the instructors are really top notch.
- It's free for women & children.

Some things Appleseed should improve:
- Allow a rest (rolled up jacket, sandbag, etc.) for some of the prone shooting. In actual combat, if one were to take a 500-yard shot, one would have the luxury of resting one's rifle. Plus it can help more novice shooters tighten groups and ensure their sights are properly adjusted.
- The second day needs as much instruction as the first, if you are going to call this an entry level class, designed to take someone from being a rifle owner to a real shooter. What I witnessed was, as Mrs. Usagi puts it, an emphasis toward competition shooting" on the 2nd day. The 2nd day we saw led to severe frustration on the part of Mrs. Usagi and several others in our group.
- Appleseed needs a better instructor training program. One "instructor" we had was counter productive to almost every shooter he made contact with. This individual was the cause for seven people ending the training after the first day, and three more the second day. More on this one in a moment.
- Most instructors that we saw, as they are volunteers, have little real teaching ability. The student needs to take more personal responsibility on making sure the training happens. Of the six instructors at Tullahoma, TN this weekend: two were excellent, one- I don't really know (he might have been good or bad - he just stayed on the opposite side so I never really got to see him in action), two more were simply socializing, and the last one was too caught up in his ego to do any real teaching.

Personal notes (things I learned for me, and my setup):
- Wide aperture sights are great for close quarters combat, but not so good for precision.
- my 16" barrel Bushmaster is still more accurate than I am.
- Using a sling on an AR15 WILL AFFECT YOUR POI.
- Use the same ammo to sight in your rifle as you will shoot.
- Monarch ammo (steel cased) had ZERO malfunctions and was accurate at 25 meters.
- Red dot sights (Vortex Strikefire) are plenty accurate, but can cover an entire target at a distance.
- I sit really high in prone position (can look to the side and see over all other shooters there today).
- "Big Papa" and "Big Mama" were outstanding teachers and organizers.
- I want a shooter's jacket.
- Use a 10/22 next time.
- Avoid tube fed, bolt action, lever action, or single shot unless you REALLY want a challenge. ("Rifleman" is challenging enough)
- My dad was damn good at teaching shooting.

On another note, I brought this up with persons in charge at this shoot, and I will mention here FWIW. This is not meant to scare people off, but to prepare them for something they may encounter. I bring these up on this site (and I will on other sites, too) so that Appleseed management cannot just say I was a frustrated shooter or some other garbage. I actually learned a lot and did quite well, thank you.
These instructors are not professional instructors, for the most part. They are volunteers. You will get volunteer level skill - that is to say, some will be great, some just so-so, and the occasional jackass that needs not be there, but feels he must due to personal lacking in some other areas. I will not name the individual here, as that would not be appropriate, but this one instructor single handedly accomplished the following:
- He made ten people upset or frustrated enough to end their training early.
- He accused a man there of "whining too much" when he sold the man a new USGI Web sling with no clip on the end!
- He accused that man's son later of loading more than ten rounds, so he could take more shots and make more hits (the young man was using factory Ruger 10/22 10-round magazines!)
- He later accused the same young man of loading early to try to get a leg up on the competition. I was actually talking to the young man when he supposedly did this - and I did not see the infraction!
- He accused me, in what I was learning was his famous derogatory tone, of propping up on my magazine. Although I guess this is technically possible, if you ever saw me in prone, my mag clears the ground by about 5 inches.
- He used spare time to brag about accomplishments. One of which was gut-shooting an animal on a hunt, yet saying this was a good shot, because he did this from prone. The actions struck me and some others as being irresponsible.
- He bragged of getting rifleman only after his fourth shoot (not surprising to me), and later said when he did it, it was with a bipod. After saying bipods were "against the grain of what Appleseeds teach." I personally see nothing wrong with supported shooting, particularly for prone shooting from great distances. But he needed to decide which way it was going to be.
- Worst of all, he offered no useful hints to any shooters I saw. In fact, many shooters improved when they did the opposite of what he suggested.

While not all people will be this way, persons attending an Appleseed shoot, especially persons new to shooting, should be wary of the possibility of people like this. It can ruin their day, or worse - turn them off to shooting entirely. And that is the opposite of what the Appleseed project is all about.

All in all, I loved the shoot. Mrs. Usagi learned a lot and really enjoyed the first day.

Sounds pretty cool... do u have a link to their website?  I would be interested in getting more info on this...

I'll jump in here:
More info: http://appleseedinfo.org/

I attended an Appleseed shoot about 2 years ago now.  Luckily, the instructors at my event were very well trained not only in safety procedures, but also marksmanship.  One was a volunteer from the host range (HCGC), two Appleseed volunteers and Fred himself.  

As the program continues to grow, it's inevitable that a few "bad apples" will volunteer to instruct.  Not that these are necessarily bad people, just that they aren't the best at instructing, or have the necessarily people skills or tact.  But for what you pay versus what you get, it's well worth attending at least once.

I am a "shoot boss" out of E TN for the Appleseed project.

I'm glad you got something out of this despite having this poor instructor.

We have experienced tremendous growth.  More so with students than with instructors.

We want to be able to take the program with the knowledge of proper shooting technique and the founding of this country to anyone anywhere.

The demand had got us stretched.  

I will talk to the higher up to see if I can get your situation addressed.

Aaron

i might be able to help if you have any in the middle tn area... am currently an instructor by trade, and have almost 10 years of marksmanship under the .mil

Aaron,

I figured the demand is greater right now than the supply as the poor instructor in this case came from two states away. I did not really mind myself - as this is the same kind of jerk that seems to be in every gun store I've ever been in. My whole problem with this individual stems from the fact that we had quite a few youngsters and women there who were new to shooting. Thankfully, "Big Mama" and "Big Papa" - who were absolutely GREAT! - spent most of their time with these folks, but this one bad seed had his influence as several of these folks new to shooting came away frustrated. This is what none of us want.

ETA: God forbid those few people that are being introduced to those activities protected by our Second Amendment get soured to them by idiots like this.

Color me surprised you already did not know about wide aperture sights & precision shooting not being compatible. I found this out quickly on my Garand when I tried it. Also, using a tight sling on about any rifle is going to move its POI from the non-sling shots. I always thought just making the sling kinda sorta snug was enough to hold the rifle steady & not really affect the POI.

Not directed at anyone specifically, but I learned a long time ago that just because someone can shoot doesn't mean that they can teach others to shoot. Good shooting doesn't improve one's personality either, IMO.

Had *I* been around said jackass, I believe *I* would've told him to simply keep away from me & leave me alone.  

Leaves me wondering how that instructor would explain the purpose of a free-floated barrel.

This particular instructor could not answer me when I asked why the military abandoned training with the sling after the introduction of the M16. He claimed to be 24 yrs plus US Army and claimed to have been a drill sergeant at one time, if not currently.

Again, I knew from about 10 minutes in that he was a strong personality, as am I. I intentionally kept low profile. The harassment he sent in my direction paled in comparison to what he was directing toward some others. I personally just shrugged it off and kept at it. Unfortunately, some of those others were new shooters, new woman shooters, and youthful shooters. Herein lies the heart of my beef with this individual.


PS - already knew about the wide aperture sights and red dot. However, I gave Mrs. Usagi the nice setup (she got over a dozen comments on the $1000 scope sitting on top of her 10/22). I figured I'd just  try my luck. If I ever decide I want an official "Rifleman" patch from the RWVA, I'll take my AR with that scope on it and do so on the first or second attempt on the second day, just to knock it out.

What's the problem with the mag on the ground?  That old wive's tale of it causing malfunctions?  Horse shit.  SWAT even had Pat Rogers do an entire article comparing mag on ground vs. not having it there in regards to accuracy and malfuctions.  Pretty eye openning.  When I went to the Winston P. Wilson's at Camp Robinson, every single shooter had their mag on the ground to use as a mono pod, especially the 600 yards iron stage.  This was a combat focused competition, so it might differ from Appleseed.  Why wouldn't you use a built in stabilizer?

I, too, have to wonder what Super-Shooter thoughts are on the purpose of free float tubes?

Whom told you this???????    

Let me start off with a brief note as to who I am (for those that don't already know of me).

I'm one of the Appleseed Program's Master Instructors. We are the ones that set policy, train Instructors and do quality control checks. I also have 37+ years experience with the AR type platform, most of it M16A1 and some M16A2 or M16A4 and /M4, as well as civilian AR models (20" and 16") inc;luding at least 3 total builds. I've taught marksmanship with both Project Appleseed and the military (Army Guard, though I have been Regular Army). I'm also an ex Bench Rest and Smallbore competitor.

Suffice to say I know of what I speak, though I'm in no way bragging (I have no ego that needs to be massaged). There are many folks that are smarter than me, and have more experience. Some can even shoot better than me. But, I'm well documented as a good Instructor. I'll say I know enough, and can back it up with results.

If there is a valid problem with an Instructor at that event, it will be fixed.

I do have some issues with the original post, though. This isn't a bash, though (it's not my way to bash others). A rebuttal is more like it. I wish no argument, just pointing out the whys and wherefores of the methods used.

Wearing glasses doesn't mean you need to use a scope. Totally wrong, but I'll admit, close. Some folks do need to use scopes, some don't. Some that do need them do wear glasses, others don't. Scopes are a two edged sword, those most folks don't realize that. Sometimes, seeing your target works against you. If you can't see the target, or can't focus on the front sight, use a scope. Know that you can't focus on the front sight and the target at the same time, nobody can, the eye doesn't work like that.

Shooting Rifleman (210 or higher out of 250) doesn't require a lot of experience, or a semi-auto rifle. Just last month, I had a very new shooter on the line at Van Etten, NY, with a Savage bolt action .22 (it was scoped, so you know). She got her Rifleman patch over the weekend, and when she started Saturday AM, she barely knew which end the bullets come out of (and she'll tell you that herself). Probably early to mid 40's, real nice person. She listened and applied what was said.

What it takes is persistence, and checking your ego at the gate.

Slings only affect AR zeroes when they are TIGHT. Snug slings (which is what we recommend) don't cause enough zero change to amount to a significant shift. Positional changes wil lcause enough zero change, and I'll wager that was what happened. If the sling is TIGHT, the rifle will usually cant a little, and that cause NPOA (Natural Point of Aim) issues. Argue this all you want, I've seen enough slings used properly on AR's and the shooters easily made the cut. All the way up to 245 and 248 scores ( a guy in my area named Leroy). The Army quit using slings before they adopted the M16A1, believe it or not. The approximate time was when they went from paper targets to the Trainfire system. The Marines STILL teach and use slings. So do I, and my weapons qual scores prove it works. I've taught many others to do the same thing, and their scores improved. Now, you can go tell "The Corps" (Marines) they're all wrong, but I doubt they'll believe you.

I'll agree, most shooters that attend their first Appleseed don't make Rileman that weekend. But almost all improve, and those that don't now have a path to follow to get there, if they practice and persist. The Appleseeds I work usually get somewhere between 12 and 30 percent of the shooters to Rifleman.

Bipods and rests are crutches. Yes, they work real well for long distance shooting, I'll grant that. But, Appleseed isn;t about LONG distance, we're about FULL distance, which is up to and including 500 yards, which just happens to be the maximum effective range of almost all battle rifles. (Your AR is rated to 460 meters, which translates to about 506 yards.) We teach basics. Now, if a shooter has real bodily limitations, like a lack of upper body strength or illness/injury, we do allow them to use a rest. But, the rest we teach the basic way. It's harder, for sure, but once you've mastered it, when you go to a rest or bipod, you'll shoot even better. Know that Nickle uses his rucksack for those long shots, 600 yards and up, sometimes.

I'll hit on why I won't recommend resting a rifle on the mag. It's said to wear out the mag quicker. I don't totally buy that one, as it's going to take a LONG time to do it. Most folks don't shoot that much (enough to wear one out), and for those that do, buying mags is a reasonable expense.

What resting on the mag does that is BAD is keep the shooter from getting his forward elbow in the proper position under the rifle. Ask yourself which is more sturdy? A monopod, or a bipod/tripod? If you use a proper prone position, you have 3 points of contact, and the rifle is close to rock steady, unlike that wobbly monopod. Trust me, a properly placed forward elbow is steadier than a monopod on a magazine.

You'll not only learn how to shoot prone, but standing and sitting or kneeling as well.

A major thing to remember is Appleseed is about basics. It's about field shooting, not sniping.

I'll mention that should you have a problem with an Instructor at an Appleseed, make sure to let the Shoot Boss know. That'll be the Instructor wearing the GREEN hat. He'll deal with it, and maybe switch people around a little. Much as we may hate to admit it, personalities do come into play sometimes, and it's easily fixed by a different Instructor working with you.

I have pretty wicked astigmatism as well as bifocals and did manage a 226 with irons. Magnification will absolutely makes it easier, but it can be done without.

Thanks for the input. Let me make some points for clarity's sake:



There was no instructor with a green hat - we had two with red hats. However, "Big Mama" and "Big Papa" knew what was up. I made sure of it.



Never took it as a bash. I actually enjoyed your post!



The bad apple instructor accused me of resting my rifle on my mag on the ground, saying it was against the spirit of what they were teaching. I do not argue that finding a rest point is against the sport-shooting techniques that were being taught. My argument was with the "bad apple instructor" who clearly couldn't have been looking at me, or needed glasses himself. I am 6'3". My arm span is 6'8" I prop up in prone with my elbows completely under me and my forearms almost vertical. With an AR15 setup and a 30-round mag (what I was using) I clear the ground with the mag by 8 inches. Yes - I had Mrs. Usagi measure the gap between the mag and the ground last night. My point here is that his claim was so asinine it was almost funny!



Actually, it is about learning a specific type of sport shooting. This became very evident after just a bit of research on the targets used, timing used, and some of the drills. This is not to say sport shooting is bad, but I feel (and there were almost a dozen folks at this event who agreed) that it was a bit misleading. Similar to learning sport martial arts vs. actual self defense martial arts.



Having an astigmatism means you (in my case with contacts to correct my near-sightedness) see the target clearly, there are just two targets out there. This is why the scope is needed, to bring it in closer and make the two targets overlap more.



Yes, but every shooter knows that supported shooting is more accurate shooting. It used to be that the military taught shooters to look for any kind of support. Any shooting program that does as Appleseed does - claims to be field shooting, yet ignores supported shooting - is doing so for some reason. I fully suspect, due to some of the STRONG similarities in the Appleseed program I viewed in person and the research I've done on some types of sport shooting that this is the case. It could also be that whomever assembled the Appleseed idea just did not want to change from the sport shooting idea, or did not know any other techniques.



Yes, you will. However, instruction in the standing and sitting positions is far less than instruction in the prone position. This is not a criticism, just simply a statement of observation that I hope will be useful to someone out there who wishes to attend this event in the future. No need of that person having unrealistic expectations.



This might be true occasionally, but it would be the exception. I have taught martial arts students who, in two weeks, could beat a black belt. It's possible, just not really likely. Shooting is like everything else, the more time you do it, the better you get. I would venture to say that if a person has never shot, or just shot a couple of times, there is a 99.9% chance they will not get rifleman. I doubt many would shoot over 150. There were several experienced shooters near me who improved, yet still could not shoot over 150 this weekend.



I wish there had been an instructor therre to make this difference clear to me and two or three others.
FWIW - I went shooting since, and I can replicate some tight groups, then without changing my target, NPOA, but just using the sling as we were shown, I can move the POI about two to three inches down and an inch to the left. This is on a Bushmaster AR15 with the regular M4 barrel (not a heavy barrel, not a pencil barrel). I'll be happy to demonstrate this for anyone.



Appleseed teaches some basics. I suggest they add another basic - shooting supported. Drop the shooting competition idea and teach people some real basics that if they ever had to fight with their rifle - God forbid - they could really use in the field.
Use that natural rise to prop your rifle on.
Use that tree limb for support.
Teach them how to roll up a jacket or towel and create a rest that they can use on the fly and get some outstanding results on.
Teaching this would add maybe 10-15 minutes to the program. But if the less valuable sport shooting stuff were removed, then there would be plenty of time for this, as well as some additional fun / useful drills.


PS - Mrs. Usagi and I absolutely loved the three-man drill. More like this and less emphasis on the sport shooting would keep more of the newcomers involved, and coming back for more.

ETA: By "moving away from sport shooting" I mean to say that times for the AQT drills (specifically transitions to kneeling & prone) could be lengthened. I had no problem getting both drills completed in under 40 seconds with great results, but Mrs. Usagi and some of the new shooters FREQUENTLY failed to get off all of the shots. This simply led to frustration and was counter productive for learning "field shooting."

Mrs. Usagi's scores went from almost 150 on the first day to under 60 by the end of the second day as the frustration mounted. There were three other shooters there that saw similar results because of the time factor. I SUGGEST Appleseed teach just one more position (supported prone), take out or lengthen times on the second and third part of the AQT drill, and possibly add a couple more patches to be earned (Marksman & Expert, perhaps?) to give all attendees a realistic sense of accomplishment.

FWIW - I am a martial artist of 28 years - President of a large (2000 member plus) martial arts organization. I do not know everything about attracting and retaining students, but it would be incorrect to assume I know nothing of student attraction and retention. My regular day job is in sales. By profession and by hobby I study the art of selling a customer and keeping them. The best way to do this is to provide EXACTLY what you advertise.

FWIW-2 - I LOVE the Appleseed project. I might decide one day to come back with the correct equipment and get that rifleman patch myself. I would love nothing better than for Appleseed to grow and expand and make more Riflemen out of more and more Americans. This is why I am critical of what I saw - not because I disliked it (except for the jackass and his effects), but because I see a way for this project to grow and expand and provide something useful for almost every American. It is certainly growing now, but I see the possibility of it being even better!

I've been told this but have not seen written proof anywhere yet:

AQTs are "old".  The course of fire was set up back when the rifle the US Army used was an 03 Springfield and used into the M1 Garand era.  It's purpose was to determine who had learned the skills being taught during the portions of rifle marksmanship training well enough to be "known" expert shots with their rifles under the conditions our troops fought under with those rifles.  In those days CQB (such a popular set of initials these days) was done with that big long bayonet on the end of your rifle when you couldn't kill all of the enemy at longer ranges before they got to your position or you got to theirs.

It was set up to teach folks skills they needed for the way they fought back then.  The basics are valid today.  

That's one reason some of the stages require reloads (5 and 5 for the bolt action guys - because of 03 Springfield and M1917 Enfield design or 2 and 8 for the semi-auto guys - because of the M1 Garand design).  

Now, from my own personal experience:

Time limits and magazine changes, position changes and target transitions do make it harder.  I'm so fat and out of shape that when I go from standing to prone I lay my rifle down first and then go prone and then pick my rifle up, sling up and still get my shots off in time.  Why make it easy?  The idea is to learn to do it under pressure/stress.  The time monkey forces you to start learning to shoot faster (with a cadence regulated by your breathing) that allows you to get of fast accurate shots.  No one gets beat over the head about their score.  The score is a personal thing.  It shows you how you are doing as you progress vs. how you were doing when you started.  That's how you judge what you've learned.

You wouldn't believe how many folks show up with $1500 rifles (or more) with $1000 optics and don't shoot rifleman scores.  It's not about equipment.  It's about learning and doing.  I've seen a 12 year old girl shooting a 10/22 that stuck out from under her arm 6" shoot a 47 on the standing stage of the AQT.  Not a MAN there with AR's, match barreled 10/22's, scoped bolt action rifles, etc. shot a higher score than that little girl on the standing stage that whole weekend.  Why?  Because little girls don't show up thinking the cost of their shootin' irons makes them a better shot.  Or their 20 plus years in the service taught them everything they needed to know about rifle shooting.

Why was/is it important to know who in the squad/platoon/company can take care of business with their rifle?  When I was in the Army 30 years ago there were riots in Washington, DC.  We were put on alert and confined to the barracks waiting on word to load into trucks to be moved into DC to protect the White House (or any other site deemed important once we got there).  Based on my scores/performance on the range with my M14 I was one of 3 guys in a company of 240 men who were ordered to report to the 1st. Sgt.'s office to await deployment downtime.  Why?  Because the 3 of us were to be issued live ammo so that we could protect our company (hard to shoot back with only a bayonet on the end of your rifle) from sniper fire if the company encountered it while in place around the White House, or other site we were there to protect.  This would have been at the order of the company CO of course.

During ARTEPs (do they even have those anymore) I was one of two guys in my squad detailed to engage and take out "long range" targets during live fire exercises.  Why?  Because of my performance with my M14 at the range.  

After saying all the above I can truthfully say that I learned a lot from going to one of the RWVA Rifleman Boot Camps at Ramseur, NC.  I'm a better shot now that I was before.  I also understand more about how what I do makes me a better shot.

I'll agree that being able to do it and being able to teach it is two different things.  After 2.5 years of being an RWVA "redhat" I'm still not satisfied with my ability to see issues people have and take care of them quickly.  Improvement is a never ending path.

Instructors (paid or volunteer) are human and not all of us are good/great at what we do.  The important thing here is that these Appleseed instructors got up off their butts and volunteered to spend their weekends (plus more time) to go out and teach folks how to shoot their rifles better.  

Please don't "paint" the program badly over a bad instructor or a bad experience.  Give it/them a chance.  Give yourself a chance, too.  We can all improve and be better.

One comment I'll make is that if you want to be an instructor we can always use the help.  Get in touch with the folks who set the Appleseed up

As they say, bring a teachable attitude and you can learn a lot.

Maybe I'll "see" you at an Appleseed one of these days.

Have a good one.

Amen to that. I've been shooting over 20 years. Picked up several great hints. Mrs. Usagi has shot rifles twice before, and was able to score nearly 150 after the first day.



My goal is not to paint the program badly, but to give honest feedback for both other students, prospective students, and Appleseed officials. Every group has it's bad apple. Folks need to be aware where they are and when they strike.



Come on now, us fat guys have got to represent! I was done with the timed portion well ahead of almost all of the other shooters in every timed shoot. I go over 280 pounds. Fat ain't no excuse!  



But my suggestion (in fact, Mrs. Usagi's suggestion) is that beginners should be allowed more time. Maybe do only one or two real-time rounds.



Yes, and one of the old basics was looking for and making use of rest positions whenever / wherever possible. I suggest this be another part of what is taught. It would help beginners tremendously. Still I think shooting from prone should be done both with and without support.



Thought about it. Over 20 years teaching the martial arts and over 20 years shooting, and the idea of bringing that together originally had made this an interest for me for the program. After about two hours Saturday morning of watching Mr. Jackass run his mouth, I decided not right now. Perhaps later. I am a strong believer in the fact that we are often judged by the company we keep. I will refrain from keeping the company of even one such as him as he is a danger to the craft of shooting as an American activity. My goal is to get as many people DRAWN TO the only real American Martial Art (shooting). For the time being, it will continue to be an individual crusade.



These are the three best statements of the thread and are why I will recommend the Appleseed program to anybody I meet.

Appleseed doesn't teach sport shooting.  It teaches BASIC rifle marksmanship based upon that used by the Army back in the 1940's and the Marine Corps to this day.  There is some relationship to highpower shooting, since highpower shooting is largely based upon Marine Corps marksmanship and the old school Army way of doing things.

There are plenty of schools out there teaching "Tacticool" shooting and supported shooting from bipods, sandbags, and packs.  Appleseed is a Revolutionary War History program and a BASIC rifle marksmanship program.  I think the program is great as it is.  Anyone that can shoot well in the three positions will easily be able to shoot to the same standards using some sort of rest.  But in the real world, there isn't always a rest so if you know the fundamentals, you can shoot well...be it hunting, or in defense of one's home.

I'm not a highpower shooter...I came from 1000-yard bipod 50 BMG competition and I really learned alot from Appleseed.  Believe it or not the fundamentals even apply when shooting a 32.5 lb rifle off a bipod at 1000 yards.  I've adapted the Six Steps and NPOA into my 1000-yard shooting and am seeing improvement.

So I'm sorry to hear you had a personality clash with a particular instructor.  Those sorts of things happen.  Please give Appleseed another try and try to come with an open mind...and not the idea to make it something it isn't...tacticool or sniper training.  It's just the Basics of Marksmanship...with a heck of a Revolutionary War Heritage discussion.

God Bless.

-David
Edgewood, New Mexico

If that is the case, then why was the entire second day almost completely consumed with drills on shooting better in the competition framed "AQT"?
Also, why do we find these similarities:
International Sport Shooting Federation Rules
CMP Match rules - look at Pages 67-73.
M1 Garand Shooting Competition Event
I will admit, it is not straight-up sport shooting training. But the training is sport shooting training, reworked a bit toward basic shooting principles.



Hence my suggestion to add basic supported positions, too. They are taught as a basic part of shooting in the military (or were), and add another dimension. Here's a link to how the military is supposed to teach it:Army Training Manual



True, but shooting from a rest is not a magic bullet (no pun intended). It must be taught. I would also comment that if there is no rest, and no time to find one, then one is much more likely to be in a more tactical environment, where the basics here would not necessarily be put to use - save perhaps a quick offhand shot. Conversely, if there is a long range shot, then there is time to find/make a rest or support.



Again, I do not really mind that there was a personality clash. I'm in sales. I meet all types every day. These things do not bother me. What bothers me is people like this scaring off so many potential shooters. That is a sad thing.
Also, I might give Appleseed another try - it depends on if I want to go more into the sport shooting - I am unsure of whether I want to and can dedicate enough time to doing so. I know that me saying this and providing links to the sport aspect might get some people a little butt-hurt, but as we say here in TN: "facts is facts."


ETA:

I stand somewhat corrected. But the fact is that at about the same time, the military abandoned teaching use of the sling and the M16 was introduced. I cannot find conclusive evidence of which came first. However, I cannot find conclusive evidence that sling use was discarded enough before the introduction of the M16 that I would think the two are not correlated in some way.

In either case, use of a sling on the Ar platform causing a shift in POI is a documented fact that can be researched extensively. I can prove it in actual shooting, and this particular "instructor" was unwilling to admit that fact, as he knew nothing of it. It is OK as an instructor to say "I was unaware of that" and move on. Had this guy done that, I might still have some measure of respect for him as an instructor.

I have some instructor experience, and have been to numerous schools around the country.
I would be willing to volunteer my time to help out.  I have a full-time job, and some family
commitments, but if there is a shoot close enough for me to make it to, I would be more than
willing to help.

Regards,

Scott

PM Sent

This is a link to the schedule for the remainder of the year:

link

Find any shoot near you and the following is what you can do.

Non-instructor help that is needed would be:

Getting the word out about a shoot before it happens (fliers at gun shops/ clubs, calling talk radio etc)

Setup the day before or the morning of the shoot

Admin at the shoot (taking $ and handing out packets)

Parking lot patrol (being eyes in the parking lot as students bring gear to the line)

Break down after a shoot.

We could also use people in all areas to help find locations for other shoots.  All that is needed is 25 yards from firring line to backstop with the firing line being long enough to support 25-50 shooters in the prone with related gear.  We of course like locations that can accommodate longer range shooting 100-500 yards but those are not necessary.

We really NEED more people to become instructors.  We have various methods for people to qualify as instructors.  They are all more rigorous than what the NRA or the Stat of TN requires for the HCP class (I have instructor certs from all three).

Thanks for your willingness to help.

Contact me if I can be of further assistance.


Aaron