I've used dry bags (the roll up kind) as pack bags, have seen others do the same, and still others try taping the seams in their pack.  They all ended up leaking in the end.

I've just stopped caring and now pack stuff into dry bags inside the pack.

I'm going to try not to reduce it any.  I'll need to play around with it when I get it.  I might just scoot the pocket over to give me the extra room.  I'm pretty strict about not cutting corners.

Most people aren't set up with a bartack machine.  You can fake it with a zigzag.  To a point.  

If you get me a closeup of the stitching on the molle, I'll see how hard it will be to pop the stitching.  If it's not going to be hard, I'll fix it for you and put you some real molle down.  

Most folks will not take the time and effort to "seal" sew-throughs on BOTH sides, so other things, like "dry-bags" are required.

I understand that very few will employ my "tested" sealing suggestions, as they are labor-intensive and time-consuming.

Much "easier" to buy "dry bags".

Yeah, I use the zigzag set at 0 length and 2 for the width.  Does the job well enough.

If you are doing molle and only have a straight stitch machine, 3-5 stitch lines right up on top of eachother - not in the same holes, but touching (ie, not spaced out) will work fine if you are using the right thread and materials.  I make sure to do an extra-solid job on the ends of the MOLLE, if they aren't tied into a seam.

Ok.  So some thoughts on suspension for the modernized medium ALICE.

So to (again) state my goals with the suspension:  I want this to be backwards compatible with as many pack frames designed for the ALICE as possible.  I'd like to design it to work with 4 main frames though.  The rest SHOULD work if these work.  The original metal ALICE frame.  The 1606-MC (the frame from the FILBE pack).  The 1609 (the frame from the Medium Ruck).  And the Crossfire DG-3 frameset (or the new version whatever it's called) (which I hope to be able to offer a few for sale for the pack)

I've gone back and pulled up all my prior research on the ALICE and modifying it.  Spent the day reviewing it and updating myself.  I've got some pictures below, with some notes.  Tell me what yall think.

First of all, most of the belts should work on all the frames (with the Crossfire having it's own proprietary belt).  oldschool ALICE (eww), MOLLE 2, FILBE, etc.  Including the aftermarket ones - Tactical Tailor and such.  Eventually I'd like to come up with a chopped down belt, similar to the Crossfire one, to offer to sell.  This would let you easily use it with belt kit.  Maybe Crossfire would like to just sell theirs?  I'd have to look at my Crossfire pack and see if the belt would be compatible with the other frames.  So I think the belt issue should be ok for now - just pick which belt you want, from a $10 surplus MOLLE belt to one like the Tactical Tailor ones.

So that leaves the shoulder harness / straps.  There's a bunch of options out there that will work with this kind of setup.  You can play around with the surplus stuff, but with current prices on the decent ones, I'm going to skip to the aftermarket ones.  There are two kinds of harnesses / straps.  The ones that attach directly to the top bar of the frame, similar to how the original ALICE pack straps do.  And ones with a center strap that attaches towards the bottom of the pack or to the bottom of the frame....and 2 straps that attach to the top bar of the frame / top of the pack, similar to how the Medium Ruck straps are set up.  I'd like to make the pack compatible with either.  I'm going to give a few examples of each category.

(Note that I'm leaving out the straps such as the MOLLE 2 strap set and the FILBE strap set - they have the top padding built into the strap set.  I wasn't planning on including these  - am I making a mistake leaving these out? Trying to make these work too will make things more complicated, and I think the other options are better options, especially with the price most of these are going for.....thoughts?)

2 straps attach directly to the top bar - besides the surplus options, there are a few people making these kinds of straps.  Tactical Tailor for instance.  I'm just going to use them for examples, there are a few others that sell similar straps.  Bongo Gear (the company that sells the updated Becker Patrol Pack) has their harness, which is kinda like the Hill People Gear harness, but that only has the 2 top bar attachment points.  These should be easy to incorporate.

And the Center attachment point straps / harness.  There are a few others - but Hill People Gear's shoulder harness is probably the best of these.  And they aren't expensive.

(Additionally, you have things like the MOLLE shoulder strap sets, those are completely different things, but should still work if someone wanted to play around with them.  I'll include a picture of these being used towards the end)

Here are some pictures of various combos of frames and straps.  

This is a Turkish ALICE (slightly smaller than a Medium ALICE, but the same thing basically) attached to a 1609 frame that has been modded with a center aluminum stay that's slightly bent, keeping the pack away from your back.  It also has a Hill People Gear harness on it.  Note the center strap dropping down to attach to the bottom of the frame + the 2 top straps.  





For reference, this is how the HPG harness attaches to their packs.  This is their Qui-Ya.  Notice how you can add the lifter straps if you wanted to.





Note that you can also run the HPG harness without using the center strap or lifter straps - here it is attached to their Umlindi pack.



So for further reference, here is the US Medium Ruck.  You can see how the straps for it are somewhat similar, but tuck in ABOVE the padding (which the opening is lowered a bit in the center) and then go on down to attach to the bottom of the frame.  (These straps should work if I design the frame slot correctly, but they are more than the HPG harness is)



Ok, so this is where it gets interesting.  

So the following are pictures of a pack that Bongo Gear made.  It's kinda an upgraded ALICE suspension sleeve, designed to accommodate the center-strap harness system at it's best - and especially for the 1606-MC frame.

The first two have the 1609 frame and Hill People Gear harness.  Notice a few things - the center of the sleeve is lowered to allow the center harness to drop down behind it.  And the center strap attachment ring on the PACK itself, like Hill People Gear does.






The next picture is the same pack, but with the 1606 frame and straps similar to the Tactical Tailor straps.  Notice on this one, how the pad in the center attaches to the crossbar.  I want to do something like this for people who want to run the 1606 frame.  




So I'm thinking of kinda combining all these ideas.  Putting a notch down on the outer part of the ALICE sleeve so you can drop one of the center-strap harnesses / straps down to the frame - or to the ring I'm planning on putting on the pack towards the bottom (like the last picture has, but isn't being uses)  - but leaving it open and wide and flat all the way across the sleeve so you can run a metal frame / Crossfire frameset.

Or you can just run regular ALICE style straps.  

I think this will give the Medium ALICE a SOLID suspension upgrade for the short, squat pack it is, and help it excel at running with belt kit.  And it will give it quite an upgrade is hauling capability attached to something like the Crossfire frame.  This is where you could put a well-designed sleep system pouch - maybe something like the below (the LBT 6130) which is a little wider and less tall than the USGI sleep system (which should work too) on the frame below the Medium ALICE for expansion of size and / or to drop off at camp or whatever.  

(LBT 6130, on the bottom of a FILBE, stupidly without cinching straps.  And while it's hanging really low on the FILBE, with a medium ALICE, it should sit about where the bottom of the FILBE pack itself is in this picture.  IE, it SHOULD still work with belt kit if you rig it right.....)





Additionally, if you wanted to just go surplus stuff or have some of it laying around, you can always do the Hellcat mods with the metal ALICE frame or the 1606 frame  (attaching the MOLLE pack's shoulder straps and belt to the ALICE)  (picture below, done on the 1606 frame)  Right now, ACU MOLLE II shoulder strap sets are relatively cheap.  You could always dye them.





So this isn't a complete and comprehensive list of stuff that works with these, or even ways to do this.  It's just some of the ideas I'd like to incorporate.  There are a bunch of other things people have done to the packs, but I think the above ideas are the best options, going from 'all used ACU surplus stuff for the ultimate budget build' all the way up to the Crossfire frameset.  Or other gucci frames and strap combos.  

I'm currently putting together a list of stuff I need to get to test the pack design once I get it done  (ie, the frames and straps for me to design the pack around) and then also the materials to build them out of (I've already started ordering some things I know I'm going to need)

Give me your thoughts and ideas on the suspension side of things.  Obviously there is a ton of things people will end up doing, which is the beauty of the ALICE pack.  But I'd still like to hear thoughts and such.


Below are links to some of the various straps, harnesses, and the Crossfire Frameset that I mentioned above.

Bongo Gear Harness

Hill People Gear Harness

Tactial Tailor Super Straps

Crossfire DG3 Frameset




EDIT: I'm adding two pictures of a Medium ALICE on a 1606 frame, with the Hellcat mods done (MOLLE suspenders and belt) - with the MOLLE sleep system attached.  Notice that the MOLLE sleep carrier is taller and less skinny than the LBT ones I posted above.  Thus why I posted the LBT ones.  BUT you can get the idea with the sleep system under the Medium ALICE pack.  

@marnsdorff

Do you still need a meejum ALICE to deconstruct and study?

@marnsdorff

Just to add a bit more complexity, DownEast Inc is offering the new 1621 and 1622 plastic frames HERE

They also offer various frame/belt/shoulder harness [i]ensembles[/] which are, IMHO, quite reasonable in price, considering what one gets, and the alternatives; see HERE.

You might want to look at the specs for their "Son Of Alice" pack and perhaps find some inspiration there: "SOA" Pack  

By all means do rummage around on their site; apparently, they have greatly expanded their offerings.

Yeah this concept is dead sexy, and I think will grow legs.

I like the direction DEI is going in, with center "I" beams removed to give you better flexibility.  This would be my first choice.

A bag is just a bag.  If I was in charge, I'd sell frames and suspensions separately to give you another choice for your ALICE mods.

Yea, I'm wanting to mess with those too.  I'm trying to stick to the tried and true, better known frames for most of this, but those frames should work too with what I'm wanting to do.  I'm probably going to grab them and try them out, but I don't want to give like 87 different frames and such on here.  

The padding and suspension I'm definitely going to take a look at eventually.  That would save me a ton of time messing with re-inventing the wheel.

Yea I like this project.  It's giving the Medium ALICE a modern reworking while keeping what makes the ALICE good.  Hopefully I can work out some of the kinks with carrying the pack.

And definitely, I'll be selling it all separately.  Though I'll probably have a couple 'standard go-to' options.  For those of us who are lazy and don't want to mess around with playing Pack Legos

Looking forward to your project.  I just made an order from Varusteleka and added two Austrian “Alice” packs to my order (only $16 each).  Maybe at the end of summer when my schedule clears, and your project has taken legs, I may mess around with it.

Just a heads up, those austrian packs aren't set up to work with frames.

Otherwise I've heard they are great packs, especially for $16.  I've thought about grabbing a couple to play around with.

Probably wouldn’t set it up that way. Or I could just add a venerable Alice Frame pocket at the top and some tabs at the bottom corners.

Thanks for the name consideration, but those play on words never really worked for us lol

Maybe MMALICE :)

We are not?
That's news to me, who did you talk to?

Website has them up so if you are not seeing them please let me know [email protected]

Send me your contact info to [email protected]

I have something in the works and wouldn't mind some ideas to hash them out, as I said on other posts, I have one in the works but it's not quite finalized yet,

That goes for anyone here, my contact info is above but lets keep in constructive

Glad to see the TT mods are being offered again.

ETA: MALICE Mods

They have been busy doing their regular MALICE packs (large ALICE style) and modding ALICE packs (I know they do large ALICE packs still, but I cannot find the option they used to have to mod medium ALICE packs on their site?  I only saw one reference to modding medium ALICE packs, and that was adding a sleeping bag extension to the bottom of the packs.  They used to have a separate option to mod medium ALICE packs with all the options in a pull-down menu.  They don't have that anymore, but apparently according to @rbarker they still are)

What I do know is that I have heard that they are busy enough that they aren't releasing a medium version of the MALICE pack, though they have discussed doing so.  I've heard that from a few different places, and of course, they don't have a medium version of the MALICE on their page.

You still gotta admit it's a catchy name.  

I dropped you an email Ryan.

"I cannot find the option they used to have to mod medium ALICE packs on their site"

See ETA in post#19 above.

Yea, but I don't see the option on there for Medium ALICE mods.  They used to have a separate category for them.

I'm guessing that they just let you order any of the mods for the medium OR large alice off the same list instead of putting them into separate categories.

Rucksack Mods


Go to TT site, click on "Products" and then select "Rucksack Mods" at top of drop-down list.

TT mods are, IMHO, a useful "point of departure" for other/different/modern ALICE/MOLLE Mods.  Suggest looking at "Reinforcement" mods in particular.  There's little sense on modding any ALICE pack or making a "new" ALICE pack without specifically addressing the demonstrated weak points of the ALICE (Med or LG) packs.   Folks like Diz will be able to inform on how to "reinforce" "user-supplied" ALICE packs.  TT pix are not very informative.

The stitching she did for the PALS webbing.  

Attached File


The stitching she did for the bed roll bottom webbing on the pack.

Attached File


The stitching she did for the bottom lashing.

Attached File


I don't have a lot of confidence in that stitching. I do think it would be doable to take it out with seam ripper.  Let me know what you think though.

No Expert, but assuming GI-spec thread was used, I've seen much worse with "accepted" GI items.

Biggest thing for me frame wise is that any frame I use has to be able to accommodate a rear ESAPI plate.  The TT MALICE Frame works well with a rear plate.

The other PITA about the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra (other than it's long name) is that the darn thing doesn't have drain holes in the main compartment, which is a trend I'm starting to notice with packs from different companies. I like drain holes, for me if I need to water proof anything I'm using a dry bag to stuff it into.  

I'll tell ya, Spec Ops really dropped the ball with their half @#% design of the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra.  If they had just done a few more things with it then it would have been golden.

What I like about the ALICE packs is that I think they have the potential to be the "AR15/Glock" of the pack world with a lot of after market support.  I also still prefer packs with outer pockets even over center zip packs, because it's just so easy to under low light or no light reach into a pocket and pull out what you want quick rather than digging through a pack or having to undo a center zipper.  It's not ideal for holding everything as close to the body/back as possible, but it's a trade off that I think can be mitigated with compression straps.  

She did use the T-70 MILSPEC bonded nylon thread that I gave her.  The thread itself I think is good to go for the strength I need at those points.  I could have gone up in Thread to something that was rated for even more weight, but I had read that such thread would require more industrial sewing machines and couldn't be used with common sewing machines.

Long story short, we pulled the Medium Alice Mods as I wanted to revisit them and maybe add a few more to the options.

I wasn't happy with the offerings or how the rucks were being modded and just pulled them for the time being.

With that, what ideas should we consider to add to the mediums?
I'm currently measuring for a pocket combo amongst other ideas that might find them to my way

Likely GTG for all usages. Time and testing will tell.

Double-Tap.

I "hope" that folks suggesting ideas will be adequately compensated for their Intellectual Property.  I think we've all seen companies with big budgets and many lawyers screw "small folks" with bright ideas but with few lawyers, and scant money. Ask Nicola Tesla.

NOT accusing TT about this, but I think it's a "concern" to folks with innovative ideas.

What about a hydration sleeve inside the pack that was made to fit a 3L Camelbak lumbar size bag (those short, wide ones they use) so that the water was carried up near the shoulders?  

Internal ALICE "Radio Pouch" will easily tote a CamelBak "Lumbar" water bladder.  No need for any other "extra-cost" mods.  Similar GI packs, with similar "radio pouches" installed, will also serve.  CamelBak Military Lumbar bladder HERE

There's nothing innovative about the Alice or Malice, it more along the lines of what features you would like to see on a Medium Malice that might be of your interest.

Intellectual Property isn't something I am looking for either, based on this and other forums, everyone has had experience to some measure with the Malice Pack and our Ruck Mods whether good or bad.
What I am interested in is what have we done in the past that I should consider on our new product.

Also Innovative Ideas always equals a more expensive Product in the end, which isn't something I am looking for either.
I subscribe still to the KISS method, it help keep prices down and hopefully something that we can Market easier too

My apologies: I meant no personal insult.  That said, innovators with a "new" idea should look into legally "protecting" such ideas.  Ask the Wright Brothers.

Uggg.  Yea.  That stitching isn't good.  The 2nd one isn't HORRIBLE, but it isn't good.  The others just suck.

Yea, you can take those apart with a seam ripper relatively easily, especially the first and last one.  If you decide to do it yourself, keep the tip of the thread ripper on the webbing itself, not near the fabric if possible.  

Let me know if I can help.  Whoever you get to do the molle for you can also put in a drain hole.  Heck, that's something YOU could do - you can always use an exacto knife, cut a TINY hole where you want the drain hole.  You can then use a needle and thread to hand-sew reinforcing around it like an oldschool button hole.  Just do it one evening while watching TV or whatever.  It takes me about 15 minutes to sew one.  

Below for an example on how-to.

https://www.craftsy.com/post/how-to-sew-a-buttonhole-by-hand/

Intellectual property is hard to enforce in the gear world from what I can tell.  Unless it's a stitch for stitch copy of something.  

Everyone ends up copying everyone else to a point.  There are only so many ways to do something.

Yea I've thought about something like that too.

He's wanting to run it up higheri n the pack, up near the top, but still up against the back of the pack.

ALL THE FEATURES



Ummm.  Here's one.  Design a stubby belt pad that's designed for use with a full set of british style belt kit.  This is something missing in the ALICE world from what I'm seeing.  You don't even need an actual belt for this, though a set of D rings or whatever on the ends of the 'stubs' that you can attach some webbing to for an emergency belt would be interesting.  Basically cut down a regular length belt to be a glorified kidney pad.

Specifically for the Medium ALICE.

Don't worry as I didn't see it that way :)

I'm a freckled Ginger, Left Handed, Veteran, and Divorced....I've had to develop some thick skin so it takes a lot to insult me lol

Yeah, looking into it more it looks like zig zag and doing three passes is probably the way to go for the webbing, 1" spacing between rows, and loops with stitching at 1.5" apart. I've still got enough of the webbing and a ton of T-70 thread to use.  I think the bottom lashing for the frame attachment should have had a box "X" stitch done.   I've got one local guy I'm going to try, if I call him tomorrow and he's never done PALS then I will have exhausted my local options, because I'm not using another person who has never done PALS webbing before.

What a pain though, I wish that Spec Ops would have just done the pack right from the factory instead of half @#$ing it.  An "updated" version of a pack shouldn't lack features/capacity of the orginal unless those features are absolutely no longer needed.  

My opinion maybe is wrong, but i don't think there is even a niche market for improved medium alice packs.

I mean:
- a pack is an expensive thing to make and sell for a profit. The appeal to a medium alice pack is the surplus price
- the part that could improved upon is the suspension and frame. in a pack like the ALICE you can tie a potato sack or a 700$ pack to the frame with minimal differences (i am being hyperbolic).

This does not apply to the aftermarket large pack like the LBT/Blackhawk/Tag/Malice ones that are, well, large packs carried in the field with heavy loads.

Off the top of my head there was a brand called "the hidden wanderer (or maybe woodsman?)" that offered a made from scratch modernized medium alice. it was over 300$ (pack and straps, no frame), i think it went out of production after a year or two.

I am talking about small packs that have provision to be mounted on alice frames, not the alice lookalikes like the helikon bergen that has nothing to do with Alice except the look. Is the spec ops recon ruck popular? i think i have never seen one in person.

that said, i am happy if someone will prove me wrong by making a popular one.

No, I think you're right, in that this will always be a niche market.  Lots of guys, including myself, have a soft spot in their heart for ALICE.  You can bring it up to modern standards, but it can be cost-prohibitive real quick.  So now it becomes an issue of sentimental value (and/or cool factor) rather than economy.  

I think this is a home workshop project.  Lots of guys will do the work themselves, therefore keeping costs down.   For those not having the time or wherewithal, someone will always be modding them for you.  

But as a commercial product, it remains to be seen if enough guys are going to buy it to make a production run viable.

Inside the OEM ALICE (and other GI packs) "radio pouch" is just where the 3L Camelbak Military Lumbar bladder rides.

Dug out from the attic my old military time Alice pack. I think suspension wise It doesnt come Better than that. Cheap too. Waist belt too would be taped to the frame and not usable, but i cut it free some years later.



That makes me think how worth It Is to make a proper High quality strap set when a Little bit of foam and tape does 80% of the job.

Pictured above are the USGI "Enhanced" LC2 shoulder straps.  Now difficult to find at a reasonable price.  Most often seen in M-81 camo, but occasionally in O.D..

The Tactical Tailor Large MALICE pack is so popular TT can barely keep up with the demand for them.

Why wouldn't a medium sized MALICE that worked on the same frame be popular as well?  Whenever you can keep something as standard as possible it means that you're having less issues with your gear.  Same straps, same hip pad, on a frame that is one of the easiest to switch a pack out on I've ever seen.  I need a pair of pliers to put a MOLLE II on its frame, it's a pain.  

Medium sized packs are also popular right now.  Lot of weeekend warriors like myself who like doing overnights or two nights.  Lot of MILSIM guys doing over nights or two nights.  Spec OPS recon isn't popular because it has fewer features than the original ALICE (no pass through on the pockets for poles and such, no webbing on the bottom of it, no webbing above the main three outer pockets, no small map pocket on the lid, no water proof linging on the lid, no bottom lashing for the frame, heavier with 1000D material, and on and on).   If TT came out with a Medium MALICE that sucker would sell especially during the summer months.

There is a reasoned argument that favors the modernized medium ALICE and while you might disagree with me I think it's clear the argument can be made beyond just wanting it for nostalgia.