Good Saturday afternoon,

This afternoon I went to the range to work up a 124g Gold Dot. These are pulled from American Reloading. I started with 5 grains of BE86 and worked up tp 6 grains. Book max is 5.9 grains. Shooting a Glock 19 and 34, both with KKM barrels.

Here are my results. Average velocities as follows.

5.0 grains G19 981 G34 1048
5.2 grains G19 1052 G34 1092
5.4 grains G19 1083 G34 1108
5.7 grains G19 1100 G34 1185
6 grains G19 1163 G34 1191

The last shot with the G19 on the 6.0 grain load gave me 1383fps. Major power factor if I am correct. Stout recoil and pierced the primer.

Not sure what happened. Loading on a Dillon 650. Is it possible a 147g bullet made it's way in there to give such high velocity and pressures? I really can't think of anything else that would cause this.

I dunno, 1383 with a 147 gr is awfully damn fast if that's what it was.

Could have been a mixed in lighter bullet. Wouldn't be the first time thats happened from pulled bullets.

The lighter bullet wouldn't pierce a prime or go ballistic with a 124 grain powder charge.

Is possible from AR to get mixed.  I usually weigh them.  6 grains if a lot for a 124 I think.

I just spent the last 2 hours weighing the 2900 remaining bullets. Found 5-115 grain bullets in the box I was working from and one in another box. Nothing over 125 grains.

Can someone with quick load run a 147g JHP with 6 grains of BE86 in a 4" barrel? I would be grateful.

I have always checked each and every bullet using a scale with orders from AR. Time consuming, but at least I know for sure what is being loaded.

Your fortunate to be using KKM barrels. We've had a couple mags blowout and cases ruptured with the unsupported chambers of Glock OEM barrels. Just a hand sting on 2 with 40SW. The 45acp I didn't notice until looking at the cases.

I had to drop the charge down and no more problems after that. Mine was a very fast powder with little room for error.

I would lean more towards a different nose shape, and a resulting deep seating depth.

The bullet could have been pushed deeper into the case during feeding because your bullet crimp was inadequate, or the bullet was slightly undersized to begin with.

This

My vote is that it likely was indeed a 147 gr mixed in, especially since AR even mentions that they over pack due to possibly unusable or different bullets being mixed in.  They sell a lot of mixed weight batches as well…

One of the concerns with pulled down and blem bullets.

But 9mm can indeed get some serious pressure with a telescoped in bullet as well.  But with a 147 you can get both issues- more weight creating more pressure, and smaller volume creating more pressure…

I think it is unlikely you were really that close to a kb.  Pistols are pretty forgiving short of major errors.

If it was a 147 with all else equal, the velocity would have been lower, not higher, but pressure would have been increased.

A 115 loaded with a charge intended for 124 would in no way represent a pressure problem but maybe would cause the velocity difference.

I'd look at whether there was any way you got more powder than intended in there.

Probably this.  The savings of Am Rel comes with the trade off that it WILL be mixed bullets and some of then may well be undersized (or oversized, some 9mm MAK bullets got mixed in once, that would have been intersting)

And I can first hand say, heavily pushing a bullet back in 9mm does increase P and velocity.

I think you had an undersized bullet get pushed way back on an already hot load.

I'll take the opposite position and say I doubt setback or seating depth would be a significant factor.
That stuff is way overblown in my opinion.

Also if your bullets are moving significantly in the case, you need to look at your bullet diameter or sizing; crimp should not be a significant factor.  The only goal of the crimp is to set the case mouth to the correct dimension if you expanded it.

I used to say that.

Then got a Chrony.   When I first got my Stribog with straight gen1 mags and defense power hollow point reloads, it would jam on those shapes in those mags and push that bullet way back.

So, I picked it up and ran it anyway.  Got at least a 100 FPS velocity increase from that.   That's a lot.   Stribog (roller delay and heavy chamber with no feed ramp", took that like nothing - but I can see some guns maybe not.    That's when I stopped saying 9mm setback doesn't matter.  Though sure, that will be powder and load dependant.  I think in mild loads it almost won't show up at all.  But in a hot load the bootstrapping shows up.  Higher pressure = faster burn = higher pressure.


(Image used to reinforce the point that this is likely more of a phenomenal only really noticeable.much at the very high end of both setback amd charge weight)

Maybe something less that 147….135??

And it looks like there could be slightly different bullet profiles there. Could it be seating depth? Or weight plus seating depth?

This is an odd one Sam.
With the higher velocity on that one shot, I would rule out a heavier bullet.
If it were a much lighter bullet, I could see getting a higher reading on the chrono like you had, but that shouldn't raise pressure and cause a pierced primer.

What if it were a larger diameter bullet?
That would raise peak pressure and yield a higher velocity, but I'm not sure it would be THAT much higher.

We're talking almost 200fps higher in this instance.

I was recently playing around with different diameter bullets for my USPSA loads. Blue bullets 147gr flat points.
Going from .355 to .356" raised the velocity around 20fps for the exact same bullet profile.
I know it's not a lot, but what if it were a .357 or .358"?
Are there any other similar bullet profiles produced for larger diameter barrels out there?
Like a .357mag style bullet?
There is a .357 mag 125gr gold dot.
Looks like speer also makes a .357" 110 gr bullet as well.
Just thinking out loud here.

I suppose severe setback could potentially raise the velocity that much.

I'm not intimately familiar with the characteristics of how be86 reacts to being compressed.
If it does not like to be compressed and you had setback, that could be a culprit.

Well, I've had a chrony for about as long as I can remember and still say the same thing.  But I guess at the end of the day it's subjective.

My reasoning:  100fps... my regular ES's with mixed brass can easily be 50+.  I wouldn't call 100fps "a lot", likely within temp variations, powder position in the case and whatnot with most powders I've used for 9mm.  I'm not saying it couldn't make any difference at all, but almost 200fps as in the OP seems like a lot to chalk up to just setback/OAL difference.

Another observation; I've seen a LOT of 9mm major loads go down range which are of course far beyond book maxes for 9mm, and can't remember a time where I've ever seen a primer pierced.  I've personally only ever seen that happen with overpressure rifle rounds.
I've seen them look flat though, and the OP's primer doesn't look flat.

Hey your right - good point.  That primer itself doesn't really look that overpressure.  

Heck, might just be a really light bullet, now that I'm looking at that primer closer.

Seating depth absolutely can make a huge difference. It's one of the biggest factors in pressure there is besides the powder charge. Bullet diameter is not going to cause this. If it was really big, it wouldn't have even chambered, lots of people have shot .357" bullets in 9mm, and .357" and .358" are very common for cast bullets.

Here is an example from Quickloads. They don't have BE-86, but Herco is very similar. I put in the data and got nearly the same velocity as reported in the original post.

9mm luger
124gr Speer Gold Dot
6gr Herco
1.150" OAL
seating depth .184"
1189 fps
32,130 psi


9mm luger
124gr Speer Gold Dot
6gr Herco
1.050" OAL
seating depth .284"
1330 fps
56,575 psi

Now if we compare to a 147gr

9mm luger
147gr Speer Gold Dot
6gr herco
1.150" OAL
seating depth .244"
1207 fps
49,690 psi

One more for the road

9mm luger
100gr Hornady FMJ
6gr herco
1.150" OAL
seating depth .111"
1164 fps
21,304 psi


Obviously these are only computer predictions, but I really doubt a 147gr bullet did this. I also see no way a light bullet got that velocity, and you certainly wouldn't have felt the recoil. A different seating depth could do it. Also as mentioned, a bullet that set back during chambering could do it too.

looking at your picture the bullets are obviously different lengths

Great info. It is looking mr and more like it was possibly set back. I wish I had take a photo of the chronograph data with that string. I remember seeing an over 300fps variation in velocity with that 10 shot string. Wild. The G34 was much more consistent.

<snip>That needs to go in the EE, dryflash3 I'm think I'm done with this experiment. If this is going to happen I want nothing to do with these.

Thanks everyone for the help here.

Take about 20 and caliper their diameters.  Measure in multiple places and depths.  Curious what the Dia is and the variability.

American Reloading is a salvage component source.  They can be made to work, and at today's retail prices options are limited - but yea.  I won't even touch their plated or TMJ any more at any price.  I had a whole box of pulled bullets that would just fall out or push all the way in with no tension at all.

What kills me is I can buy factory Precision Delta bullets now for what Am Rel wants for some of their pulls.  

Crazy. The most likely scenario was nearly 60,000 PSI? Unreal.

I understand what you're saying, but OP was shooting pulled bullets, which means the bullet already had a groove crimped into it from the first go-around, and I see some pretty good scratches in the bullets shanks from being loaded and subsequently pulled. I have taken to using an even heavier crimp on pulled bullets to make sure I have an adequate crimp. Most of the reloaders I've talked with who use pulls tell me that they set their seating depth to match the crimp and scratches on them. It makes sense, and I do the same. However, this does position the bullet to crimp poorly.

(Deep breath) Taper crimps were developed to crimp the case mouth slightly into the bullet to both remove any remaining flaring, and to provide a bit of a step to help mitigate against bullet setback. Case neck tension isn't always enough.

Thanks for taking the time to look.

What I do, is load pulled bullets... exactly the same as any other.
Never been a problem.
If your completed round will case gauge, your crimp is adequate.

I case gauge everything. All of these were fine.

Another possibility is you accidentally reloaded a stepped case. Those damn things keep showing up in my range brass… Did you happen to find the case from that round?

Nope. I have the case. Not stepped.

Handloader #344 used a ria 1911 with a 5" barrel. They used 6gr of be-86 with a 124gr gold dot loaded to 1.12, for a velocity of 1301fps.

Handloader #336 used a hk p30 it has a 3.86" barrel  they ran the same exact load as above and got 1283fps.

Handloader #333 used a cz75 sp01 tactical, it has a 5.21" barrel. They loaded a 124gr gold dot to 1.12 oal and used 6.1gr of be-86 and got a velocity of 1314fps.


I've also noticed this with my own jug of be-86, that it will achieve a higher velocity than what is stated in the load data they provide. Now, you're loading longer than the load data suggests, and still getting the same velocity that they publish. Speer data is 124gr gold dot loaded to 1.12 in a federal case with a max of 6gr be-86 for 1199, which is right around what you're getting. Stuff that bullet down maybe .04-.05 and bam, maybe something like 1383fps.

Example, different powder, intentionally loaded shorter with the same powder charge.

Here loaded long.
Description: 360-640 hp 4.2gr cfe pistol 1.145
Notes 1: 145gr hollow point
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 145.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
17    897        259.10     130.07    
16    897        259.10     130.07    
15    895        257.95     129.77    
14    905        263.74     131.23    
13    910        266.67     131.95    
12    902        262.00     130.79    
11    895        257.95     129.77    
10    900        260.84     130.50    
9     907        264.91     131.51    
8     899        260.26     130.35    
7     893        256.79     129.49    
6     894        257.37     129.63    
5     882        250.51     127.89    
4     877        247.68     127.17    
3     889        254.50     128.90    
2     873        245.42     126.58    
1     882        250.51     127.89    
Average: 893.94
StdDev: 10.41
Min: 873
Max: 910
Spread: 37
True MV: 894.96
Shots/sec: 0.10
Group Size (IN): 0.00

And now .02 shorter.
Description: mp 360-640 hp
Notes 1: 1.125 4.2gr cfe pistol
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 145.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
7     978        308.01     141.81    
6     963        298.63     139.63    
5     978        308.01     141.81    
4     953        292.46     138.18    
3     957        294.92     138.76    
2     966        300.50     140.07    
1     985        312.43     142.82    
Average: 968.57
StdDev: 11.98
Min: 953
Max: 985
Spread: 32
True MV: 969.67
Shots/sec: 0.22
Group Size (IN): 0.00

Nice bump in velocity for only .02 change.

Imagine the bump from a .04 or .05 change

Thanks.

At  1.15 OAL and 6gr of be-86 he's getting 1191 from a 5.3" barrel. From the three handloader magazines #333, #336, and #344, they got from 1283fps to 1301fps going from a 3.86" barrel to a 5" barrel using 6gr of be-86 at a OAL of 1.12, which is from the load data speer supplies for the 124gr gold dot.

So it's possible if he loaded .03 shorter, from 1.15 to 1.12 he would be around that 1300fps mark from the hand loader magazine data, around 100fps velocity bump for .03. But, he hit 1383, with a 4" barrel. So in my opinion it setback probably around.05. It doesn't sound like much but a 9mm case is tiny, not much space in there to begin with.

When using mixed brass, some cases are quite different. Fc and blazer are some of the nicest brass for cast bullets. They are thin, and very mailable. I'm able to load .3575 diameter bullets in this brass with no bulge. It's very possible to load a pulled and swaged bullet that's probably.354 or less into a fc or blazzer case and get setback.

I do see it was a speer case.