User Panel
Posted: 9/7/2021 3:37:09 PM EDT
I'm sure similar stuff has been asked in the past so please forgive me, but...
Just put together and zero'd my first serious bolt gun and decided to ditch the MOA scope I've known. As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. I feel like someone not knowing how to swim being thrown in the deep end currently. Time to learn and understand it all because I'd eventually like to try a local PRS match Thanks! |
|
[img]smiley_bandit.gif[/img]Shift-
|
Call the folks out at ETTS range in Waxahachie, or the folks at Tiger Valley outside of Waco. They do long range shooting at both places and can probably recommend a few people, books, sources for info. Oh and a web search will get ya some stuff to read.
I'm a Mil-Dot slide ruler and never needed anything else for my purposes. |
|
One well at a time, Drill Baby Drill!
If you need more than 8 rounds in a 1911 to solve your problem, you need friends with rifles. I don't need your PERMISSION in order to voice my OPINION |
Easiest way is to stop trying to link linear units of measure to angular units of measure. You're just confusing yourself. If it's .1 mils it's .1mils. Don't waste your time trying to say, "ok if it's .1mils and it's 500 yards away then it's X inches across."
If you're trying to understand how to do reticle based range estimation then pick a unit of linear measure, yards or meters and stick with it or the math gets to be a real problem to do in your head. Otherwise the essential difference is in how many clicks are between the whole numbers and nobody really cares about that either. |
|
|
Originally Posted By ShiftSix: As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. Thanks! View Quote A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. View Quote I think this sums up my confusion well, except if you miss by .2 mils. How would I know what 0.2 mils looks like or are saying to measure it with the scope reticle? |
|
[img]smiley_bandit.gif[/img]Shift-
|
Exactly! You measure it with the reticle which is the ruler in front of your eye. Forget inches or and linear. When taking a shot at a target measure it and you will know how wide it is in mils so you can figure your wind hold position. Doesn't matter how many inches wide it is. The sooner you forget inches the better.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By ShiftSix: I think this sums up my confusion well, except if you miss by .2 mils. How would I know what 0.2 mils looks like or are saying to measure it with the scope reticle? View Quote |
|
Every cloud has a silver lining (except for the mushroom shaped ones… which have a lining of Iridium and Strontium 90)
|
Get a Mildot Master off Amazon. Kind of a slide rule and it’s a useful tool for calculating solutions and getting your head around the concept.
|
|
|
If your scope is first focal plane, you can use the reticle as a ruler at any magnification. That's it. Missed low by .3 mils? Come up .3 mils.
|
|
|
Maybe the trick here is understanding that a MIL, just like MOA, is an angular measurement. You're measuring an angle, just like degrees. You're not measuring distance. "Mils to meters" is analogous to "degrees to miles".
So, yes, you multiply/divide by a thousand times your distance to translate between angular and linear, if that's what you want to do. (Maybe for range estimation.) But, if you can see through a spotting scope or riflescope or whatever, you just observe that your impact was, say, 2.5 mil to the right... And so you either dial, or adjust your aim (maybe in the xmas tree?), by 2.5mil. |
|
|
To make it simple, a milrad is 3.6 inches at 100 yds. A 10th of a milrad at 100 yds is .36 inches, or to put it another way, just shy of 3/8 inches (.375"). So do the math:
3/8 inch at 100 3/4 inch at 200 1 1/8 inches at 300 Etc., etc., etc. Hope this helps you some. Jon |
|
|
To make it simpler, 1 mil is 1 mil at any range. .1 mil is .1 mil at any range. Linear is a waste of time and add to confusion and does nothing for the shooter as the scope is not in linear. It's in angular mils.
|
|
|
Understanding Mils (Milliradians) | Long-Range Rifle Shooting with Ryan Cleckner |
|
|
Originally Posted By Curmudgeon762: Get a Mildot Master off Amazon. Kind of a slide rule and it’s a useful tool for calculating solutions and getting your head around the concept. View Quote Comes with a book that shows you how it works, even comes with some examples. Then go outside with a mil reticle optic and mil some things for size and distance for a while. Eventually you go from using the Mildot Master to just doing it in your head. 27.8. 1x3.6x27.8=100 (almost) 1mil on an item 3.6 inches tall times multiplier of 27.8 gets you range in yards of 100 yards. |
|
|
Oh yeah everyone can do that in their head. LOL Doing things in your head is not a good idea.
|
|
|
|
Originally Posted By ballisticxlr: Easiest way is to stop trying to link linear units of measure to angular units of measure. You're just confusing yourself. If it's .1 mils it's .1mils. Don't waste your time trying to say, "ok if it's .1mils and it's 500 yards away then it's X inches across." If you're trying to understand how to do reticle based range estimation then pick a unit of linear measure, yards or meters and stick with it or the math gets to be a real problem to do in your head. Otherwise the essential difference is in how many clicks are between the whole numbers and nobody really cares about that either. View Quote This. I didn’t get it for years. I was stuck in the old Leupold mildot reticle and 1/4” click world from the eighties. I used to practice conversion math. (that would take me ten minutes to recollect now). I used to do the range estimation math on objects, trucks, autos, tires, human, even the ubiquitous soda can had a range estimating factor. I lost all the math from disuse. Once I saw the light of observe 5 mils, hold or dial 5 mils and done I was . I do still have a lack of uniformity though. I have a couple of old Leupold and Nikons with MOA or IPHY knobs and mildots. As well as mil/mil NF scopes and a couple all MOA fancy reticle hunting scopes from Leupold and Trijicon. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Rob01: Exactly! You measure it with the reticle which is the ruler in front of your eye. Forget inches or and linear. When taking a shot at a target measure it and you will know how wide it is in mils so you can figure your wind hold position. Doesn't matter how many inches wide it is. The sooner you forget inches the better. View Quote So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Wheelgun: So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. View Quote Yes you can and I have years back. Most say go mils now as a majority of long range shooters and competitors use mils so easier to talk to each other without conversions. Also most mil scopes are 10 mils per turn and can get most to 1000 in one turn. Even with 25 moa per turn it's tougher. Other than those little things there is no reason as both will work the same. |
|
|
Download the Shooter Ready program
|
|
|
Double tap
|
|
|
Originally Posted By Rob01: Yes you can and I have years back. Most say go mils now as a majority of long range shooters and competitors use mils so easier to talk to each other without conversions. Also most mil scopes are 10 mils per turn and can get most to 1000 in one turn. Even with 25 moa per turn it's tougher. Other than those little things there is no reason as both will work the same. View Quote Both of those reasons make sense. A friend keeps telling me mil is better and sent me a video where the guy says moa sucks. His reasoning is basically that moa sucks because most people use mils and because you can use a mil reticle to measure where your bullet strikes. I get if you're shooting with others it makes it easier to communicate, but just because everyone else does it is a retarded reason in my opinion. And I can understand wanting to dial less. I shoot long range strictly for fun ro hear the steel clang so I couldn't understand why an all moa scope wouldn't work. Thank you. |
|
|
For me mils are easier to use because they are smaller numbers. Where you might go 3 or 5 mils with a scope, the same would be like 15 or 20 MOA. Plus you’re dealing with .1 or .5 or .7 rather than a quarter, or half, or three quarters. It’s just easier for me to visualize.
Associate mils between your clicks and your reticle. That’s it. If you are using mils but are an MOA guy and need kind of a base line to go off of then remember it’s three clicks instead of four for one MOA. That’s all you really need to know. You don’t need a mil dot master at all unless you are ranging a target. That is the only thing it’s really good for. I have not touched mine in years (decades) since I made the switch to mil/mil scopes. If you had to do much math to shoot I’d have to throw rock’s instead. |
|
|
A mildot master can also be used for angle fire but if shooting on a flat range and not ranging your targets using the reticle then yeah they aren’t needed.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By Rob01: A mildot master can also be used for angle fire but if shooting on a flat range and not ranging your targets using the reticle then yeah they aren’t needed. View Quote True. I’m spoiled by using a range finder that can do that stuff these days. That or a slope doper. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Rob01: Oh yeah everyone can do that in their head. LOL Doing things in your head is not a good idea. View Quote You can with practice. Now depending on what you're shooting and where, or what distance you're measuring and why, you might want to use other tools. I've used mils for distance when rangefinders die, and have confirmed with GPS on distances that get me good approximations. Depending if I'm walking it or shooting it, it can work fine. But applications vary and degrees of precision needed for a given task can vary. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Sirveaux: You can with practice. Now depending on what you're shooting and where, or what distance you're measuring and why, you might want to use other tools. I've used mils for distance when rangefinders die, and have confirmed with GPS on distances that get me good approximations. Depending if I'm walking it or shooting it, it can work fine. But applications vary and degrees of precision needed for a given task can vary. View Quote That's the point. You don't need to practice something that is not needed. I have ranged with the reticle a lot and can do it just fine but not in my head and I would never recommend anyone do that. See you next year for the reply. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Rob01: That's the point. You don't need to practice something that is not needed. I have ranged with the reticle a lot and can do it just fine but not in my head and I would never recommend anyone do that. See you next year for the reply. View Quote A little quicker than that... OP was trying to understand mils back when this began. I find the ranging aspect of it helps the whole thing make sense. Sure, you can have a spotter say "adjust 2 mils left" and just go by the hash marks and simplify as "it's angular measurement", as that's all that's really needed, but is that a full understanding of what's going on? I like the idea of being able to function with as little gear as possible, and rangefinders and Kestrels are great, but not the same as just being able to do the math. It's like a kid learning arithmetic or multiplication/division on paper and in their head vs with a calculator, computer, or pad. Sure, they get the right answer, but do they know how they got it? If you want to learn/understand mils, I think that's probably the better way to go. Mildot Master is just a slide rule analog calculator that lets you know you did it right. And from there, you know mils. And then you can just lazily go "yeah, adjust 2 mils left", while thoroughly knowing that'll work - and more importantly, with the gear afterwards, it's much faster. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Feuerhand: Originally Posted By ShiftSix: As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. Thanks! A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. That works until one realizes their scope is MIL reticle but MOA turret - stupidest thing ever (I'm sure it was a good idea at the time). |
|
|
Originally Posted By Wheelgun: So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. View Quote Because mil is smaller numbers. Small number make easy for caveman brain shoot bullet far. |
|
|
Originally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. View Quote I have a comment and question about that since this is a "basics" forum. Strictly speaking, from trigonometric view, that angular measurement adjustment is exact only as long as the bullet travels in a straight line. Real bullet trajectories aren't straight lines. In order to get an exact answer, you would have figure out how much the trajectory changes from one angle to another at whatever distance and conditions you're shooting in. It's not exactly linear. However, it sounds like experienced precision rifle shooters are saying it's close enough for their needs. Right? |
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.