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Posted: 5/10/2024 7:47:44 AM EDT
A nuclear bomb has been set off.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/snitching-united-pilot-drama-southwest/ |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 7:56:27 AM EDT
[#1]
You know that the flying community survives on being self critical but something like this should have been kept within that cockpit. Now, if the crew was totally out of control and put the safety of the pax at risk and didn’t respond to the error that was pointed out then there may be reason to report the events.
I saw many mx errors in my time and we worked together to correct them. We didn’t run to QA and leaders to rat them out. Teamwork, it’s a thing. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 8:11:27 AM EDT
[#2]
737 guys, is there a limitation on using speed brakes without flaps, or was this just a difference in technique issue?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 8:18:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: _DR]
[#3]
'some people' can't keep their mouths shut about things.
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Posted: 5/10/2024 8:29:25 AM EDT
[#4]
I can perfectly understand why anyone would think it unnecessary, counterproductive, and going too far to report that formally.
But what is clearly more ridiculous is making it somehow a tribal fight based on what airline they work for. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 8:34:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: 'some people' can't keep their mouths shut about things. It isn't so much that, but more if she had a safety of flight issue to bring up as a jumpseater/additional crew member, the appropriate venue was right then, right there with the crew and not on an ASAP or (gasp) the FAA Safety Hotline. If that wasn't sufficient, there are multiple union-to-union venues (e.g. Jumpseat Committee) that were more appropriate than going direct to the FAA. It is common professional courtesy that is integral to the entire concept of pilot commuting on jumpseats. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 8:52:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Considering all the recent drama surrounding commercial flights, she probably did the right thing. If she had not reported it and something occured later, she may have been reprimanded
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:15:31 AM EDT
[#7]
I just needed to get to the second part of the first sentence.
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:18:39 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wvfarrier: Considering all the recent drama surrounding commercial flights, she probably did the right thing. If she had not reported it and something occured later, she may have been reprimanded What appears to have happened on the flight -- getting slow without the slats out and trying to use the speedbrake -- which was corrected without other incident, is the type of error that occurs with new pilots at the airlines. "Getting down and slowing down" is one of those things where there's a lot of aircraft-specific technique and doesn't really get taught well because of the limited opportunities on IOE. Usually it doesn't get to the point where the *jumpseater* has to say something to the crew about it, but regardless the jumpseater is an additional crew member and the jumpseater briefing always includes a "if you see something, say something" from the Captain. It isn't a big deal that it happened, and it also isn't a particularly big deal that the jumper pointed it out to the crew, which is why the reporting of the incident to the FAA is such a massive over-reaction. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:18:45 AM EDT
[#9]
A young first officer was making an error, jumpseater pilot brought the issue up to the crew. The captain corrected the issue and thanked her for pointing it out.
The question in my mind is the use of speedbrakes without flaps, is that some sort of non-approved method of operation that crews use to shortcut a procedure they deem as a PITA, or was this just a mistake? If it was a non-approved shortcut, then the FAA report was probably warranted. If it was an oversight/mistake by a junior pilot then it should have ended when the captain corrected the behavior in the cockpit. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:20:26 AM EDT
[#10]
Her name and photo is already posted on the pilot groups and forums.
She put herself in a pretty deep hole that will be difficult for her to climb out of. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:23:39 AM EDT
[#11]
 The best of Karen Marsh #southpark |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:32:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rbass: 737 guys, is there a limitation on using speed brakes without flaps, or was this just a difference in technique issue? Different airlines have different procedures for their use. You can 100% use speed brakes WITHOUT flaps at SWA. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:33:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 98Redline: The question in my mind is the use of speedbrakes without flaps, is that some sort of non-approved method of operation that crews use to shortcut a procedure they deem as a PITA, or was this just a mistake? Since they were flying the LOC into SAN (or setting up to fly it), approach regularly keeps you high on the vectors in to it, regardless of which direction you're coming from. I'm guessing the FO wanted to increase the descent rate, which usually works well with slats out, in FLCH, and with the boards out. The FO probably just didn't remember that they hadn't put the slats out yet. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:42:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bohr_Adam]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: What appears to have happened on the flight -- getting slow without the slats out and trying to use the speedbrake -- which was corrected without other incident, is the type of error that occurs with new pilots at the airlines. "Getting down and slowing down" is one of those things where there's a lot of aircraft-specific technique and doesn't really get taught well because of the limited opportunities on IOE. Usually it doesn't get to the point where the *jumpseater* has to say something to the crew about it, but regardless the jumpseater is an additional crew member and the jumpseater briefing always includes a "if you see something, say something" from the Captain. It isn't a big deal that it happened, and it also isn't a particularly big deal that the jumper pointed it out to the crew, which is why the reporting of the incident to the FAA is such a massive over-reaction. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By wvfarrier: Considering all the recent drama surrounding commercial flights, she probably did the right thing. If she had not reported it and something occured later, she may have been reprimanded What appears to have happened on the flight -- getting slow without the slats out and trying to use the speedbrake -- which was corrected without other incident, is the type of error that occurs with new pilots at the airlines. "Getting down and slowing down" is one of those things where there's a lot of aircraft-specific technique and doesn't really get taught well because of the limited opportunities on IOE. Usually it doesn't get to the point where the *jumpseater* has to say something to the crew about it, but regardless the jumpseater is an additional crew member and the jumpseater briefing always includes a "if you see something, say something" from the Captain. It isn't a big deal that it happened, and it also isn't a particularly big deal that the jumper pointed it out to the crew, which is why the reporting of the incident to the FAA is such a massive over-reaction. You don't think making this an airline versus airline thing is also a massive over-reaction? It was one pilot who could have worked for anyone, even Southwest. It's not as if she conspired in some United Pilots' group chat. Or am I just misreading the tone of the linked article? |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:42:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: What appears to have happened on the flight -- getting slow without the slats out and trying to use the speedbrake -- which was corrected without other incident, is the type of error that occurs with new pilots at the airlines. "Getting down and slowing down" is one of those things where there's a lot of aircraft-specific technique and doesn't really get taught well because of the limited opportunities on IOE. Usually it doesn't get to the point where the *jumpseater* has to say something to the crew about it, but regardless the jumpseater is an additional crew member and the jumpseater briefing always includes a "if you see something, say something" from the Captain. It isn't a big deal that it happened, and it also isn't a particularly big deal that the jumper pointed it out to the crew, which is why the reporting of the incident to the FAA is such a massive over-reaction. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By wvfarrier: Considering all the recent drama surrounding commercial flights, she probably did the right thing. If she had not reported it and something occured later, she may have been reprimanded What appears to have happened on the flight -- getting slow without the slats out and trying to use the speedbrake -- which was corrected without other incident, is the type of error that occurs with new pilots at the airlines. "Getting down and slowing down" is one of those things where there's a lot of aircraft-specific technique and doesn't really get taught well because of the limited opportunities on IOE. Usually it doesn't get to the point where the *jumpseater* has to say something to the crew about it, but regardless the jumpseater is an additional crew member and the jumpseater briefing always includes a "if you see something, say something" from the Captain. It isn't a big deal that it happened, and it also isn't a particularly big deal that the jumper pointed it out to the crew, which is why the reporting of the incident to the FAA is such a massive over-reaction. She was way, way out of line! This is not how every day errors are handled. Getting slow (although not ideal) happens every single day, across all airlines. There are safety systems built into modern airlines that correct/warn the pilots as it gets to a point of being an issue. As MudEagle said, yes the jumpseater is always welcome to speak up if they see something that concerns them but taking it to the FAA is outrageous. This is like us calling the AFT on someone, because we see an issue with someone and their firearms. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:48:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Rbass]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZoomieFoosh: Different airlines have different procedures for their use. You can 100% use speed brakes WITHOUT flaps at SWA. Thanks, kind of what I suspected. That jump seater definitely should've kept her trap shut. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:51:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You don't think making this an airline versus airline thing is also a massive over-reaction? I didn't comment at all on that, actually. Jumpseat wars are idiotic, no matter the cause. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 9:54:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rbass: Thanks, kind of what I suspected. That jump seater definitely should've kept her trap shut. It wasn't simply the use of brakes on a clean wing, it was that it was done while they were below the amber "hook" on the airspeed tape (the min maneuver speed reference). I'm not a 73 guy, so I don't know the terminology they use on their PFD, but it is the yellow line on the speed tape just below item 9/REF on the pic below. Given the circumstances it isn't a problem that the jumpseater spoke up in the cockpit. 
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:03:58 AM EDT
[#19]
The other churn in the rumor mill is that her husband is the one who made the call to the FAA and reported it on her behalf.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:13:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperHeavy]
[#20]
I thing the issue is best expressed as the pronoun used "she".
If it was such a safety issue, maybe SHE should have made it vocal on the black box instead of a hotline after they landed  I figure the issue isn't her speaking up in the cockpit, it's more she then shut up and reported it later. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:20:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperHeavy: If it was such a safety issue, maybe SHE should have made it vocal on the black box instead of a hotline after they landed She did -- she verbally spoke up, and the Captain intervened to correct the airspeed and configuration. From the article linked in the OP:  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:26:36 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: It wasn't simply the use of brakes on a clean wing, it was that it was done while they were below the amber "hook" on the airspeed tape (the min maneuver speed reference). I'm not a 73 guy, so I don't know the terminology they use on their PFD, but it is the yellow line on the speed tape just below item 9/REF on the pic below. Given the circumstances it isn't a problem that the jumpseater spoke up in the cockpit. Unless I'm just missing it from the OP article, where did the low airspeed information come from? The article at least only mentions the configuration, not that they were in the amber range. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:29:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rbass: Unless I'm just missing it from the OP article, where did the low airspeed information come from? The article at least only mentions the configuration, not that they were in the amber range. That article doesn't mention the speed, no. Other reports I've read both mention the speed and the amber line on the speed tape. EDIT: FWIW, one report has it that they were below the "UP" airspeed bug and not inside the amber hook...which is a lesser undesirable state, but still worthy of verbalizing as a jumpseater depending on the conditions. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:33:40 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: It isn't so much that, but more if she had a safety of flight issue to bring up as a jumpseater/additional crew member, the appropriate venue was right then, right there with the crew and not on an ASAP or (gasp) the FAA Safety Hotline. If that wasn't sufficient, there are multiple union-to-union venues (e.g. Jumpseat Committee) that were more appropriate than going direct to the FAA. It is common professional courtesy that is integral to the entire concept of pilot commuting on jumpseats. It’s way out of my wheel house but yea it sounds like it was way overboard. - in cockpit alerting the potential issue per your own training fine and welcome. - running to the FAA seems absurd. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:34:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperHeavy: I thing the issue is best expressed as the pronoun used "she". If it was such a safety issue, maybe SHE should have made it vocal on the black box instead of a hotline after they landed I figure the issue isn't her speaking up in the cockpit, it's more she then shut up and reported it later. She didn't call it in, a "trusted friend" did. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:40:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: That article doesn't mention the speed, no. Other reports I've read both mention the speed and the amber line on the speed tape. Copy that. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:41:22 AM EDT
[#27]
I feel like most aren’t reading everything.
The female jump seat did NOT take it to the FAA. She off-handedly related the story to a friend, who took it upon themselves to make a 3rd person report, without her knowledge. Damage is done to the female jump seater, but the only lesson she can learn is not to tell other people stories. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:41:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Zero excuses for notifying the FAA, assuming it’s all true. The story regarding her husband doing it is even worse.
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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:43:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rbass: Copy that. Lots of reading on the topic at APC, both in the SWA and United sub-forums, if you're interested in mining through the 99.9% irrelevant stupidity. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 11:32:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Doing some reading on PPW, there are some SWAPA and UAL people who are pretty "in the know" commenting. Nothing specific but, as always, there are multiple versions of what happened floating around. One of them stated that he believes at the end of this, she will be wealthy enough to not need to work anymore.
Apparently Aero News ran a story of it but redacted it fairly quickly and stated that the entire story was false. Who knows, maybe this is all a made up story and somehow, her name got attached to it and she's getting blamed for nothing. Time to put down the torches and pitchforks. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 11:36:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Magoo6541: One of them stated that he believes at the end of this, she will be wealthy enough to not need to work anymore. Internet attorneys like to play the "sue 'em for libel and slander" card often, but rarely does that actually occur. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 12:24:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SquatchAv8]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Magoo6541: Doing some reading on PPW, there are some SWAPA and UAL people who are pretty "in the know" commenting. Nothing specific but, as always, there are multiple versions of what happened floating around. One of them stated that he believes at the end of this, she will be wealthy enough to not need to work anymore. Apparently Aero News ran a story of it but redacted it fairly quickly and stated that the entire story was false. Who knows, maybe this is all a made up story and somehow, her name got attached to it and she's getting blamed for nothing. Time to put down the torches and pitchforks. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 1:49:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Internet attorneys like to play the "sue 'em for libel and slander" card often, but rarely does that actually occur. I don't know. I'm not an attorney and it's been a while since I've had to stay in a Holiday Inn. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 3:46:55 PM EDT
[#34]
The person that took the photo could definitely be in some trouble but you’d have to be very ignorant to do that, it’s not like we haven’t been warned.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 3:47:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C130H]
[#35]
Like anyone would believe that story. Sure, a “friend” did it. gmafb
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:48:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Doesn’t sound like the jump seater did anything wrong other than perhaps tell her SO about it.
SO appears to be a Karen. If the story is half accurate, but who knows if that’s true. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:58:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: switchtanks]
[#37]
One thing is for sure- she’s never sitting in a SWA jumpseat again.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:00:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: switchtanks]
[#38]
Also, as long as its already out there….
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Posted: 5/12/2024 11:07:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LRShooter]
[#39]
Ok, what's her name. Can someone message it to me if you don't want to put it out there.
A trusted friend called it in. Fucking BS. Edit. Never mind on the name. It's being spread around on an internal website. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 4:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pickle]
[#40]
The green line with the green UP next to it (some airlines call that "top bug", other airlines call it other things, don't quibble over details) is the FLAP MANEUVER SPEED. The amber hook (some people call it a "foot" but we just let that slide) is the MINIMUM MANEUVER SPEED. The FLAP MANEUVER SPEED (green line with green UP, or 1, or 5, or whatever different flap settings you have available on your modern Boeing jet...) is the slowest speed at which you should fly if your flaps are at that position. So, if your flaps are up you should not fly any slower than the GREEN LINE WITH THE GREEN UP. If your flaps are at 5, you should not fly any slower than the GREEN LINE WITH THE GREEN 5.
What does FLAP MANEUVER SPEED give you that MINIMUM MANEUVER SPEED doesn't? More margin. MINIMUM MANEUVER SPEED (the hook, or what certain people like to call "the foot") gives you stall protection with 25* bank plus 15* overshoot. FLAP MANEUVER SPEED gives you 25* bank plus 15* overshoot plus some more that Boeing doesn't spell out explicitly (at least not in the books I have {had}). If the jet in question was to fly below the FLAP MANEUVER SPEED for the current (let's say up) flap setting, nothing BAD was going to happen other than a slightly higher than normal deck angle and less margin above the already established 25* plus 15* overshoot which is provided by the amber band (hook, or "foot" for mad doggies). If the jet got all the way down to the amber band (hook/foot) they would STILL have had 25* plus 15* overshoot protection. I AM IN NO WAY ADVOCATING FLYING BELOW YOUR CURRENT FLAP MANEUVER SPEED, but it's not like you're about to die instantly. Sometimes people confuse FLAP MANEUVER SPEED for MINIMUM MANEUVER SPEED in modern Boeing jets. Here is the pic MudEagle posted above for reference:
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USA
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Posted: 5/13/2024 12:58:33 PM EDT
[#41]
So for us GA guys, was it like having your speed brakes out below the top of the white arc and not dropping flaps to aid the brakes, pitch angle and lower the stall speed?
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Posted: 5/13/2024 1:27:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mach]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Since they were flying the LOC into SAN (or setting up to fly it), approach regularly keeps you high on the vectors in to it, regardless of which direction you're coming from. I'm guessing the FO wanted to increase the descent rate, which usually works well with slats out, in FLCH, and with the boards out. The FO probably just didn't remember that they hadn't put the slats out yet. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By 98Redline: The question in my mind is the use of speedbrakes without flaps, is that some sort of non-approved method of operation that crews use to shortcut a procedure they deem as a PITA, or was this just a mistake? Since they were flying the LOC into SAN (or setting up to fly it), approach regularly keeps you high on the vectors in to it, regardless of which direction you're coming from. I'm guessing the FO wanted to increase the descent rate, which usually works well with slats out, in FLCH, and with the boards out. The FO probably just didn't remember that they hadn't put the slats out yet. The details in the write up don’t make sense. Probably poor on details, probably started going down and slowing down with boards, we’re supposed to slow further , but didn’t because the slats were not out so the jet wasn’t slowing below clean speed. Or they were actually slow below clean speed , but IRRC, that should not happen with the auto thrust levers on. But it has been a while since I was on the 73. ETA. Who ever reported that to the FAA should be flogged. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2024 2:16:00 AM EDT
[#43]
Back seat driver.
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Posted: 5/14/2024 2:26:17 AM EDT
[#44]
"She"
Oh so it's another Jezebel story. Shocked. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2024 1:34:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ender875]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I can perfectly understand why anyone would think it unnecessary, counterproductive, and going too far to report that formally. But what is clearly more ridiculous is making it somehow a tribal fight based on what airline they work for. Great, another thing on a totally different topic I dont agree with you on. If she did it, or a "trusted friend" (sure, sure, sure) did it well, a group is a group. Captn has control of who sits. I sure as shit wouldnt want anyone from her company in there. Others feels the same. Thats where the tribe comes in. Most SWA are fine, had many with them at the Cockpit in HOU, when a career is on the line. Nope |
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Posted: 5/14/2024 7:01:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ender875: Great, another thing on a totally different topic I dont agree with you on. If she did it, or a "trusted friend" (sure, sure, sure) did it well, a group is a group. Captn has control of who sits. I sure as shit wouldnt want anyone from her company in there. Others feels the same. Thats where the tribe comes in. Most SWA are fine, had many with them at the Cockpit in HOU, when a career is on the line. Nope Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ender875: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I can perfectly understand why anyone would think it unnecessary, counterproductive, and going too far to report that formally. But what is clearly more ridiculous is making it somehow a tribal fight based on what airline they work for. Great, another thing on a totally different topic I dont agree with you on. If she did it, or a "trusted friend" (sure, sure, sure) did it well, a group is a group. Captn has control of who sits. I sure as shit wouldnt want anyone from her company in there. Others feels the same. Thats where the tribe comes in. Most SWA are fine, had many with them at the Cockpit in HOU, when a career is on the line. Nope Something tells me it's a long list of things we don't agree on. The way your brain works makes my head hurt and makes me weep for humanity. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 4:08:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Magoo6541: Her name and photo is already posted on the pilot groups and forums. She put herself in a pretty deep hole that will be difficult for her to climb out of. Good. Women have a problem with creating drama, so let this be a lesson. Call me sexist or whatever, but there is something to the female brain that requires drama and chit chat about other people that males just don't have. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 12:34:21 PM EDT
[#48]
I mean, if I had this kind of heat coming down on me, I too would make up a story about "a trusted friend," being the one who actually made the call. Either way, there is going to be some awkward times asking for the JS in her future. She might consider moving in base, which is just good advice anyway lol.
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Posted: 5/29/2024 3:34:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Sounds like this starts out as a teachable moment for a newer pilot, then toss in a woman pilot and it goes all to shit. Coming from a railroad guy wouldn't their be a recording of the call to the FAA or whom ever about this. That would end the "trusted friend" issue as I would think sooner or later someone who knows someone will get a copy of that recording and put it out their for all to hear. Their is a reason on the Locomotive we had a saying, "what happens in the cab stays in the cab". I wouldn't want to be in her shoes going forward.
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Posted: 6/4/2024 6:31:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wvfarrier: Considering all the recent drama surrounding commercial flights, she probably did the right thing. If she had not reported it and something occured later, she may have been reprimanded Lolz. No. That’s something you Never, Ever, do. If the story is accurate, Her primary crime, was blabbing about it to her “trusted friend”. But even with that, it would be well within the rights of any captain, to deny her the jumpseat for life. |
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