My argument is the same, there is no replacement for displacement. You chose to argue my point, not me. Obviously your not well rounded in high performance engines proud have realized anything a small engine can make, a larger can make more.  My argument remains the same, this thread is about muscle cars and performance, not Camrys. I get turbos make power in small engines, but the fact remains those engines have no where left to really go, Ford ditched the turbo 6 for the Raptor R and went with a blown 5.2, which has the abilty to make allot more power then the turbo 6 could ever imagine.

Yeah, not at all.

I've seen a mustang (older) get beat by a V6 ford windstar minivan.


Maybe it looks cool, sounds cool, and I kind of want it. But anything made in a year starting in with a 2 is faster.

There IS no replacement for displacement.

Like a supercharger or twin turbos.

When I was in college in the late '80s, a fellow student had an '86(?) Corvette and I asked him for a ride one day. I was expecting to be impressed by it, but it was sort of disappointing.

Engines are air pumps, the more you move thru it = more power.

That is a terrible analogy since fuelers are limited to 500ci.

You pontificate like someone who reads a lot but doesn't do anything.

Forced induction can make up for lack of displacement but it comes with its own host of problems. Displacement is not some trivial thing when it comes to engine design and performance. On the other hand increasing displacement alone does not overcome primitive engine design. There's a lot going on but in a general sense a modern engine can benefit from increased displacement in more ways than peak horsepower alone.

Pumped gas for a while and the Shell station owner's kid had one just like that.

OPs statement is a very obvious statement.

Modern tech has created high performance vehicles that Classic Cars cannot match in about any way.  Modern Corvettes, for example will leave old ones in the dust along with having better handling, breaking, etc.

50+ years of R&D will do that, yes?

Classic Muscle Cars are historic artifacts of the first generation of performance that laid the foundations of what we have today. They have a look, feel and attitude/swagger that is indicative of the era they came from and represent a time in American history.

There is just something about seeing fully restored old Muscle cars that radiates power and attitude.

Pure Americana!

You’re right.  I don’t do anything.  

I only hand built every square inch of this car including engine assembly.

The only thing I didn’t do was machine work on the block and anything involving welding(cage, reinforced axle tubes etc)

9.80s on 310CI, factory cam and a single nozzle nitrous system.

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The second half of your comment isn’t wrong.  But I’m not arguing that.  Of course displacement is king if other factors are similar/equal, but I never argued against that either.

“No replacement for displacement” is a dumb boomer comment that needs to die.  It’s wrong.

+1
There is already universal aftermarket ECMs out there that will run pretty much anything .
Obviously tech will continue to improve especially if it becomes a necessity to large numbers of people

True but what the do with that limitation is amazing. Pretty much every class has some sort of limitation.

ETA, it’s not wrong or bad, Never_A_Wick implies that small displacement modern engines with power boosters can equal big engines, but in fact they can’t for power production. You don’t see John Force going to smaller displacement ie my comment he’s doing it wrong. No one will give up displacement when the goal is to win, and winning requires power, more than the guy next to you. Yes that one part of the equation but it’s a major part. Look at all the kits and ways that will increase displacement for both small and big blocks, why is that?

I’m not the one who wanted to argue a simple ages old statement, which is still true to this day.

A friend of mine builds snowmobiles that hold multiple world records.

The 2-cylinder engines make 760+ HP on a single turbo.

He uses Link engine management systems.  Quite trick.

(Bonus pic)

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This is a dumb argument.

There is a replacement for displacement, it's called power adders, which is why all drag racing rules are setup around that idea.  Boosted or on the bottle, x cubic inches: all motor, y cubic inches.

There's a reason guys are getting into the 6's with 2L 4 bangers

It’s not wrong, anything a small engine can do a bigger engine can do better. Can you get 3000 horsepower out of your 301? Can you get it out of say out of a old school Gen 4 632 Chevy? You want throw things in like forced induction, nitrous, well that’s what power is about, I never said bigger is limited. The statement is also not a boomer statement but from the greatest generation and it will always be right.

I’m glad you built a race car all by yourself, I’ve built many different levels of cars over the years by myself starting with drag car cars, a couple circle cars finely settling on hand built resto mods in my shop by myself.

Your only awareness of Corvettes is a ride once in a '86??

My daily driver is one year away from being a "classic" car if you go by the "20 years or older" metric.

2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS Ultimate Edition.

Less than 90K on the clock. I've driven it all over the eastern seaboard with nary a problem with the drivetrain. It floats down the highway on a cloud of air ride. Since I bought it three years ago for $6800, I have had to fix the following:

Remove and replace the air ride suspension components- $500 in parts from Arnott Air Ride and a few hours of my time.

Remove and replace the starter- $150 and three hours in the driveway, including the time to drive to and from Autozone.

Remove and replace the A/C condenser/dryer because Ford is stupid and put it inside a plastic case that collects condensation and causes it to rust out- $200 at the shop.

Remove and replace the R/H exhaust downpipe when one of the cats broke loose and started rattling around- $130 and a few hours of my time.

I currently have parts on order to remove and replace the HVAC air box, as the vent door is broken and I only get air out of the main vents, along with the vent motor actuator and the heater core (because I'm pulling the dash and I only want to have to do it once). I also have to replace the L/H exhaust down pipe because one of the cats broke loose last week and is rattling around. I will probably just take the car to the local "good ole' boy" exhaust shop and have them cut it out because I don't want to deal with it and I am in Florida, so no emissions inspections to worry about. I also need to replace my stock  rims as they are corroded from salt and brine, and two of them have tire bead seal issues as a result.

My biggest enemy is rust. The car spent a few years in the rust belt, so there is surface rust on the frame, and on the bottom of the doors where the pinch seams are. I have some POR-15 to try to slow it down, as I plan to keep this car for a good while.

The biggest issue that I have found with older cars is that parts become scarce, and people willing to work on them also become scarce, unless you have some serious coin to drop. For example, the biggest Ford pick-n-pull in my town closed. If you need a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury part, you could find it there. Now it's gone, which makes me sad.

Convo-Pros?

@Kitulu depending on what "mode" your hvac has defaulted to it may just be the o-rings in the EATC solenoid/actuators. I thought my HVAC shit itself in my '03 once but the orings went bad so the vacuum actuation system couldn't work which usually defaults it into "defrost" mode for safety. It's like 10 cents worth of parts and maybe an hours worth of time to fix it.
https://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2438760&page=all

PS: I'd love to do a restomod on a '05-07 Town Car Signature Limited and throw a 5.0L Coyote/10R80 in it.

It sucks even the last panthers are 13+ years old now. They aren't like Lexus reliable but they are very simple, understressed vehicles, and when shit breaks it's usually crazy cheap and easy to fix. About the only thing I ever had a shop do was a wheel bearing cause I needed to take it in for new tires anyway so just had them do it while it was in to save me the asspain of doing it in my driveway.

Fire up the gilligan's island music.  🎵 A threeeeee  hourrrr  starterrrr  🎵  
When we're talking classic cars, a starter is supposed to be a 10 minute job.  
My wife's grocery getter CRV with the sideways motor and all the crap crammed in under the hood is what's supposed to take 3 hours.  Damn starter stuffed in there under the intake.  You gotta take out a bunch of unrelated parts to reach it, and then get to this little tight area to reach a bolt you can't even see and your ratchet only has 3 degree of motion.

Used to be a Corvette specialist around here that offered 240 month financing

Yep!  I loved em.

Too many draglites out there.

Rear end was narrowed a hair with 9” ends, and the wheels in back had a pretty deep dish not typical of what you’d see on a regular Fox.

Car sat perfect.  I’ll see if I can dig the pic up.

ETA had it on my phone.  It’s a pic of an actual pic. So it probably looks like ass.  

Ignore the wiring hanging down in front and the low exhaust….  Car was not 100% finished.

This is circa 2001.

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I’d much rather have the corvette. It has a soul.

Read the post I quoted for context, which you apparently completely ignored.

Did it have this state of the art beast under the hood?

fun factor matters

First thing that I did was replace those o-rings. When that didn't work, I got a small borescope from work and ran it down the right-center vent. I could see the vent door just lying there, barely moving at all when I switched modes.

I would love to do a frame-off resto on it someday, or a frame swap.

That three hours included about 45 minutes round trip, and looking up the Chilton's on the MWR Library. The physical removal and install took longer than ten minutes, mostly because it was my first time with this car, and because the top bolt cannot be seen... you have to feel for it.

The alternator in my wife's Edge, OTOH, was 7+ hours of frustration that included removing the fans and relocating the main wire harness, as well as removing the right front wheel and splash guard to get to the tensioner.

Bummer. Was hoping I could save you some assache.

I've also wanted to snag a Marauder and throw a better engine in it too. That car really disappointed me. I wasn't expecting like a corvette beater when they came out but the performance vs the hype made it a big letdown. A 7.3L godzilla would be fun in that one.

Hell i remember in the mid-90's me and my best friend tried to get the alternator out of his mid-80's Accord. We spent like 6 hours trying to get it out of the car and it wouldn't come out. Turns out you have to jack up one side of the car and crank the wheel and it just comes right out lol. I don't think any of the haynes/chiltons said anything about it either IIRC. Thank god for internet message forums now. Like 99% of those stupid "tricks" are well documented now (just like the panther HVAC O-ring thing).

I know I'm completely wrong about it, but in my head, thats where the cutoff is.  A classic car, You can pick any part of the car and just looking at the thing, know how its supposed to come out.  Even if its a car you've never seen nor heard of before.  

If you have to somehow know that the catalytic converter comes out via the passenger wheel well, after removing the tire, its not a classic.  

Did someone say Trans Am?

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BTW, my cars handle and stop. And haul ass.  But have fun with your Camry

@sixgunsblazing
Well that Camry has a modern engine in it, that makes the age old statement “there’s no replacement for displacement”, and one even said it needs to go away, even though it applies today as it did back in the 20’s and 30’s.
Oh, this is for Sixguns ,


And because we hot rodders, simply can’t,

By the mid 70s cars had stuff like extra hoses, pumps, filter systems, cats, etc. but were still pretty easy to work on.
By mid early to mid 80s when I was driving, etc. there was weird stuff like how to change fuel pump in an F body or how many extensions / angles needed to get spark plugs out, etc.

Until last summer I had four vintage muscle cars from 68-74.  I’m down to just two.
Changing a starter, alternator, throwing on a new dis. Cap or rotor, etc. changing a head light, replacing a bulb, we’re just all, quick, simple jobs.  Some weird stuff might come up,
Attacking the wiper motor linkage to the wiper arms in a 71-73 Javelin/AMX is weird.
I’m pretty sure there was some total pain in the ass bolt on the frame of a 2nd Gen roadrunner/satelite/coronet/superbee.
And to be honest, there was plenty that could be a pain in the ass on old cars, removing ax ducting to get to heater cables, replacing a clock, etc.  but…
A lot of the real pain in the ass stuff was kind of stuff that we do decades after the car was meant to be past its life.  The basic normal years of use stuff tends to be dead simple wand easy to get to pre-80s.

You could pull up to my house in a 64-74 American car, or towed there, and there’s like an 87% chance I could replace your starter or alternator or a headlight or distributor cap/rotor, spark plugs , spark plug wires, starter relay or whatever and be done in 30 minutes.  I could probably pull and rebuild your carb in and replace it in an hour or two.

Replacing the starter in my daughter’s 14 year old Acura RDX means pulling off the coolant overflow reservoir and hose, removing two bolts and prying up a couple of plastic fasteners that will break and have to be replaced, to get under a shield and remove a bolt you can’t see to remove a bracket, then a couple more bolts for a fan shield, and some hard to reach connected you can sort of see, and you remove the fan, then some bolts for some bar between the exhaust manifold and frame or transmission or something, then you have some wiring harnesses attached and in the way, some harness to manipulate connectors, three different size sockets, not counting the 10mm you already used, two will be very hard to reach/do, then after over an hour or so, you will have completed…
Not the job.  But having removed the starter.
With the replacement and completion being harder to get just right and taking twice as long.

Something like replacing the alternator on say my son’s 16 year old MDX involves a similar process with even harder/tighter shit to reach.  I’ll never do either of the above again.  Also look up the cost and hours to replace a headlight module on a modern vehicle.

Now, frankly, you get a lot longer, more reliable use of the basics on modern vehicles, but the cost and times of basic repairs are much more.  

I could replace the alternator on my Geezer Wheezer in about 20 minutes with no issue and taking nothing but the belt and connections and mounting bolts off. Now it would be easier if I yoinked the air lines from the filter to the intake but it's really not needed. Once I figured out what I actually needed to do, it literally took more time to dig up my tools then to actually replace the belt.

LOL at all the engine purse swinging.  Those muscle cars also had terrible suspension systems and bias ply tires.  Fun for the tards that live their lives 1/4 mile at a time.  But shitty on road courses, in the rain, etc.

I agree 100%, I do everything on mine except paint, anyone can write a check.

And here we have priceless,
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Which brings us back to the age old saying, “there is no replacement for displacement”.

Sick Seconds which ran a 6 second quarter did the entire Hot Rod Power Tour years ago.

too small to see and read  

Agreed, racers have been making cars corner since cars have been modified for racing. Hell Carroll Shelby started working loosely with Ford on his own Shelby American venture in 1961, he became heavily involved with the GT40 program in 1965, and a joint effort with Ford on the Mustang in 65, to create the GT350, and the GT500 in 67.

There were the Z/28’s you could get cross rams and the JL-8 option, Boss 302’s, GT Shelby Mustangs, Trans Am’s, AAR Cudas, and Trans Am Challengers, Corvettes, hell even AMC did the AMX. Making cars turn was both a factory affair, as well as private ventures. Crownvic96 is spot on and your buddy is a illformed idiot.

do ya know who invented it?

The look of the earlier one screams gas shortage era to me, I guess they started that look in those car lines.

I just don't care for it.

The couple times i've been to the Detroit Autorama I found I loved all the wrecks on the bottom floor of COBO then the top floor with all the shit with $20K worth of chrome and mirrors. Yeah there's some cool stuff up there and some really nice NOS survivors but if you want unique and interesting all the black sheep are in the basement with their random shitboxes that have cummins engines crammed into or some other unholy combinations of body/chassis/drivetrain.

What other negative boxes can you conjure up?

Car "looks" have evolved for decades.

Virgil Exner's "Forward Look" - more for you to mock



Chrysler 300



145mph in 1960
4,270 lbs