Would you think Federal 165gr Sierra GameKing or Federal Fusion 165gr is appropriate or would you up the weight to 180gr Federal Fusion?

I’ve heard a few stories locally of double lung shots and losing the bear which is why I want to hit the shoulder to immobilize it.

Update:  09/30/2023  Bear down!

First, I want to thank everyone for their advice.  I greatly appreciate it and it was extremely helpful for this hunt!

Well, it was down on 09/15/2023, but I have been swamped with work/family so I didn’t have time to update properly.

To set the stage:

1) Bear season in the various wildlife management areas usually goes from September 1 until early to mid-November, but if there is no food on the ground, they will usually hibernate starting as early as late October.

2) There is a baiting season and you can also hunt with dogs.  I do not have dogs.  

3) My friend has 70 acres he manages for deer, and while has shot 3 bears, he does not eat bear meat and gives it away.  

4) He owns the land and therefore, as a landowner, he can bait without a permit, though he has to do so only during the bear baiting season from 9/1 to 9/28, much shorter than the overall season.  The land is on his way home from work so easy to bait.  

5) We had multiple bears that were coming through the area. While the baiting season doesn’t start until opening day of 9/1, there are two neighbors’ corn fields next to the property and game cameras would capture them on their way in and out.  Once he started baiting, it took only a few days for them to start coming to the feeder.  There was a sow with this year’s cubs, a couple of juveniles from last year, and then some more mature males.  One of these males we named “Goliath”.  From the pictures, my friend estimated he weighed 300+ lbs live weight.  

6) I had originally planned to hunt for 9 days at the end of the month only, maybe some weekends as well, but in the end, I hunted each weekend, Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon.  It’s a 1 1/2 hour drive each way, but worth it given the set-up.  

7) Of course, we went through a wet, cool, rainy summer, only to be hit by a September heat wave like no other!  It hit the 80’s and 90’s.  While the 8X16’ blind is set right next to the wood line with some overhanging trees, it was brutally hot inside.  I ended up bringing frozen towels in ziplock bags to cool off!  We had a fan but that created some noise.  We also couldn’t keep the door partially open to help manage scent.  My younger son came with me twice on Saturdays but could not come on Friday afternoons due to school.  

8) I ended up hunting 2 days the first weekend (9/1 was a Friday this year), 2 days the second weekend, and then shot my bear on the Friday of the third weekend.

View from the blind in the blazing Sun!





Frozen towel to cool off:



Camera set-up attached to a wall mount:



I saw some beautiful sunsets as I hunted until 1/2 hour after sunset:





On September 15th, it happened.  I had just looked up around 5:40pm and spotted who I thought was Goliath emerge from the woods directly across the field, a distance of about 160 yards (Sig rangefinder).  He turned to my left and was making his way around the left side of the field.  He walked slowly and made it around some “islands” of trees/bushes where I would lose sight of his.  

I had examined the field carefully and, given my skills with a rifle, decided that I would only shoot if:

1) The range was < 100 yards.

2) There was a complete broadside presentation.  I planned on only taking a double-lung shot.  This was based on the advice given here, though I have read a lot of bear hunters shoot through the shoulders to immobilize the bear, then double lung to kill it.

3) The bear was not moving.  

The last thing I wanted to do was rush the shot and then have to go looking for a wounded bear.  Other hunters may have been completely comfortable taking a broadside shot at 160 yards on a moving target.  That wasn’t me!

As he circled around, he appeared between two of the islands and was at about 120 yards.  At that location, never did present a good broadside shot as you’ll see in the video.  

Typically, from the game cameras, the bears would enter the far end, circle around, then come to the feeder in the middle of the field.  Before baiting began, they would still emerge from the same location and head to their right to the corn fields on the neighboring property.  The exception was Goliath who would come out the far end and go straight to the feeder which was 90 yards from the blind.  He didn’t bother circling around.

The bear left again and kept circling to my left behind an island, then reappeared directly to my left and made his way towards me.  There are some apple trees and he headed to them.



That apple tree is at 88 yards and he was a little closer than those trees when I shot, so I estimated about 80 yards.  He went full broadside, and he stopped moving.  He met all the criteria to take a shot, so I did!  

He was only 5 yards from the wood line to the left and he bolted right into it.  I said “Sh*t!” after the shot because I thought it was a bad shot or even completely missed.  

I ended up buying several different commercial loads including solid copper/monometal, Remington 180gr Core Lokt, and settled on using commercial Federal .308 180gr Nosler Partition bullets.  

The video appears to show the impact higher up and behind the shoulder.  The bear itself had what appeared to be an entrance wound that was lower and to the right.  The exit would was lower.  The bullet appears to have gone cleanly through both lungs.  

I went down to where I thought he entered the woods, then looked further to see if there was a clearer area I could enter as where he went in was a solid wall of trees and bushes!

I paralleled the likely path and saw he had collapsed about 15 yards into the woods, so he had only gone about 20 yards from where he was shot.

This is when I first found him:



Entrance wound:





Hanging with ice:



He weighed 217 lbs gutted:







We looked at the cameras, and compared photos of Goliath to this bear, and the conclusion was that it was a different bear.  Although Goliath did come in the morning of 9/15, the day I shot my bear.  

This is a picture of Goliath on 9/4 and 9/15.  



I’m extremely happy with the hunt and the bear I got.  If Goliath is still out there, and he makes it through the season, we will hunt him next year.  

This is a short video of the hunt.  Yes, I was excited and hyperventilating!  I have no idea what that zipper sound was.  You end up making a lot more noise than you think you do trying to stay quiet.

I’ve only shot one bear but I wouldn’t think twice about using any of those rounds. Preference for anything bonded. Or a mono metal.

Did you double lung yours or shoulder?

Assuming you don't mean giant Alaskan brown bears, pretty much any big game bullet you can shoot out of a 308 will make a black bear dead in very short order.

It’s been 15 years and I can’t remember but if this is anywhere but coastal brown country I wouldn’t worry about getting through that shoulder. Those bonded bullets will go through the shoulder of an elk or moose, I’ve seen that.

The solution to most hunting cartridges is to use BARNES bullets. Their solid copper hollow points work.

This.

This.

Ive gone over to hunting all my big game with their solid copper loads.

165gr Gamekings would be my last choice for bear. Deer yes but those gamekings do not seem to be bonded. Bears are tough animals. Not sure how a double lung shot turns into a lost animal if you cant find the animal to begin with.
Barnes is a very good choice if your set on a shoulder shot.

Solid copper or bonded projectiles of a given sectional density will always give the best penetration.

If I need to "anchor" an animal, I try to break to the opposite shoulder after passing through the vital organs

OK, I will search for these.  Any particular grain weight in .308?

It's been my experience that bears die easier than deer if hit correctly. Don't shoot them in the shoulder. Shoot them half way front to back and the same for up and down. The fur soaks up the blood and the fat plugs the hole. They do drag 5 times harder than a deer though.
 

Thank you!

Good point about the double lung.  I saw a video from one friend where the ~ 150 lb black bear was broadside and you can see the bullet impact on the fur.  You are absolutely correct that unless the bear/animal is cut open, there is no way to know for sure that both sides of the lungs were hit.

That’s a great picture!

The tried and true woods thumper round is the Remington CoreLokt 180 grain round nose soft point.  Hard to find these days but worth the effort.

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100% This!

Agreed.
Does anyone have experience with the TTSX? I have used the TSX in the past but not the tipped.

@SMC527
@txgp17
@Urimaginaryfrnd
@Ryan_Scott

Is this a good choice for black bear?  Do they come heavier or is this the heaviest for copper?

I’ll start a new thread on shot placement.  It seems most people double lung them.  But there is a not small minority that recommend a shoulder shot.

This would be out of a 22” barrel, Ruger M77 Mark II in .308.

Federal Premium 308 Winchester Ammo 165 Grain Barnes TSX Hollow Point

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-premium-308-winchester-ammo-165-grain-barnes-tsx-hollow-point-p308h-p-109572.aspx

I like a lighter TSX. I bought 130s.

Because of the higher velocities?  Better penetration?  I know there is a sweet spot in terms of velocity and weight.

Monometals perform better at higher velocity than equivalent weight cup and core/bonded bullets. Since they retain weight they tend to penetrate better than you'd expect, so you don't need as much weight.

A shoulder shot is a bad shot on a bear.  Their vitals sit further back than on deer.   For black bear you dont need anything fancy, any regular hunting bullet will do.  On the big bears I prefer the tsx or ttsx (or similar).  

Black bear are not hard to kill.  I use a levergun in 357 mag for BB hunting.  A 158 grain JSP moving at 2000 fps from a 20" barrel knocks the life.right out of them.

Personally, I wouldn't go lighter than 165gr because of the reduced sectional density, but that's just me. I like to ensure that I get both an entrance and exit hole

The other factor that hasn't been discussed in this thread is choosing one that your gun likes/shoots accurately

Bullet weight and construction don't mean anything if the shot isn't in the right place

My pops once got his 338s mixed up and killed a deer with one shot with a 338WM loaded with 338-06. It's good that the first shot worked because he needed to pry the case out with a tool. Point is we tend to way overthink this. I shot a 400 pound problem bear with a 150gr South African FMJ from a 17.7" barrel and you'd have thought that God smote him. That was a snap shot with iron sights too. Would I pick that? No, it's what I had when we caught him. Accuracy? I'm all about it. But it matters barely at all in most situations. On all but the largest black bear there are relatively few bullets that won't do a good job. Pick one and get to work.

Thank you!

Do you like bear meat?  One friend gives his meat away and just likes the hunt.

I am reading everyone’s posts carefully even if I don’t quote and comment on them directly.

It sounds like the general consensus is to stick with double lung shots with the Barnes bullet and I will go with the 165gr.

I’m not a fan of bear meat but a good cook can make it work. I recall a lasagna that was good for instance.

Fusion 165g should work fine.

I’ll be contrarian and say Barnes Bullets suck. They suck specifically for creating large wound channels because of their design of high weight retention. If you do decide to use them choose lighter for caliber bullets and keep your impact velocity above 2200 FPS if possible and 2000 FPS at a minimum.

My choice would be a 168/178 eld or a TMK because those bullets will create the largest wounds and are still plenty capable of breaking the shoulders of any animal in North America.

Of your choices you’ve presented though a 165 fusion will do just fine and create a larger wound cavity compared to the Barnes and will still likely exit the animal. Shoulders won’t be a problem for the fusion either.

165gr Nosler Partition. He went about 5 feet.  
DRT
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I think so.  The 165 Barnes TSX will penetrate like a 180 or 190-grain lead jacketed bullet.  But the most important factor is shot placement, but you're already addressing that I see.

Barnes and Black Hills also offer factory-loaded Barnes bullets in 308 Winchester with a 168 grain.  The 168 has a "tangent ogive" that is sought by some long-distance shooters.  Buffalo Bore is known for loaded top-notch ammo at the highest available pressure, and they offer 150-grain Barnes.

Disclaimer, I've never hunted black bear, but I've used nothing but Barnes bullets for whitetail hunting for the last 20 years in my own 300 Win Mag handloads.  The bullets are devastating, they performed much better than jacketed bullets.  I've never recovered a bullet shot by 300 Win Mag because it always exits.  A friend of mine recovered a .458 rifle bullet he shot from a sabot in a .50 cal muzzleloader.  It weighed like 99% of its original weight.

Originally Posted By WoodHeat:
The tried and true woods thumper round is the Remington CoreLokt 180 grain round nose soft point.  Hard to find these days but worth the effort.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/176088/R308W2_jpg-2553748.JPG
quote]


That bullet and load has killed a ton of bears,bou and moose here in AK.


As pointed out by another poster about all copper bullets and needing speed.
Seen and been told about quite a few failures. (No/low expansion)


We had really good luck with the old Winchester fail-safes. Even at extreme distances they expanded.

@akcaribouhunter
@WoodHeat

Is this similar or identical?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1024290091?pid=129362&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=ammo-seek&utm_campaign=129362#reviews

@FirstComm

I don’t reload and I’m having a heck of a time finding it from a known vendor and in 165gr!

All I know is that round nose bullet just plain worked.
Even in the 30/06 it was a favorite along with the 220gr rn.

I am still pretty much a newb about ballistics.

Any 180 will do the job, but the one I posted does it better than any I've seen. The key is the round nose soft point that seems to always just hammer what it hits. Much like how the RNSP in the 35 Remington has made that round a north woods favorite. The think to keep in mind for hunting up here is that there are few long shots. Most are within 70 to 100 yards at best, so high performance bullets really don't provide any advantage.

The one I suggested is Remington item 27844. It doesn't seem like any legitimate sellers have any in stock (scam sites galore these days).

I have a bunch, so if you want a box PM me.

@C-4

Federal Premium Carrie’s it

https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-partition/11-P308S.html

@C-4

In my rifles I prefer 150gr.

I mostly mixed bear meat with a little pork and made Italian sausage. Bear meat doesn't have a lot of flavor.

The bullet didn't behave like a Partition.

Thank you!

If I get one, I’ll be sure to experiment with recipes.

@RattleCanAR

How different does a Partition look expanded?

The expansion looks like a Barnes.  Weird how that one shed the lead but kept the mushroom.

Federal Premium 308 Winchester Ammo 165 Grain Barnes TSX Hollow Point   Yes that is a good choice.

i used 300 gr JHP  on my last bear and it lost a lot of the frontal core. It did the job though

Ive got an opinion, based on the science and information offered by the bullet makers themselves:   Do not attempt to use one bullet for all uses...

It doesn't matter who it is:  Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, whomever.  All make different bullets for different applications.  There are no magic bullets that work well under ALL situations.  Something designed to hold up under the incredible stresses of a 300 Magnum at short range (3000 fps) will be a tough bullet.  That same bullet simply is too tough to open and expand well at the modest impact speeds of a longer range shot from a short barreled 308, (down to 2000 fps, depending on muzzle velocity and range).  

When someone recommends one bullet for all uses (like the TTSX recommended earlier) , its a recipe for disaster.  That bullet works freakin magic out of a magnum at shorter ranges.  It can and will hold up well at the impact speeds of that situation.    Unfortunately , if you load that into a much more modest chambering, and potentially couple it with a short barrel, initial speeds are LOW.  My short barreled 308 carbine (20") only runs about 2600 fps.  At 100, 150, 200 yards, speeds are dramatically lower.  We rapidly approach the expansion threshold of that bullet. Instead of the magnificent performance seen when used in the magnum, you get poor expansion, or a total failure to expand.    Same bullet, but two different  results.    Any time you get a blanket statement about "this bullet is best in all situations", I'd urge you to take that with a large does of skepticism....

Some animals dont run.  I swear, I think you could jump out of a bush and yell "BOO!" and caribou will stand there in shock and die.  They dont take much abuse.   Other animals are tough and determined.  I've completely taken the heart out of more than a few deer, and these run 75, 100 yards with no heart before piling in dead.  Hell, I've double lunged a good sized whitetail with 225 Grains of Nosler Partition out of a 350 Rem Mag, and watched that bugger run a good ways before piling in.  If you double lung a bear, you best be prepared to treat it as a bowhunting shot.  That bear will run, and you will need to track it.  There isn't a magic bullet on the planet that will stop that run...   It simply takes time for blood loss to cause that bear to pile in, and in that time, the bear will run.  If you use something like the TTSX out of a modest cartridge, you will get an exit wound.  However, it a fairly narrow wound track (compared to others), and the bear will run.

The issue isn't bullet.  Its shot placement.  Break down the shoulders.  If he can't run, he can't go far before expiring.  End of story.  And on many game animals, the high shoulder shot also impacts the spine, and the roughly half dozen nerves clustered in that region.  Thats why high shoulder shot deer drop like the main breaker was pulled...  boom flop.

The 308 win is plenty of gun.  It will reliably drop bears.  They aren't magic.  A regular old 165 or 180 grain cup and core bullet will get it done VERY well.  Rem corelokt, Win power points.   The federal fusion is an EXCELLENT choice.  The GameKing is a bit fragile.  They often go off like a grenade.  Spectacular expansion.  How long is your 308 barrel?    If you've got a 24", the higher velocities might make the Game king a bit more expansive.  If you've got a 20", like I do, the reduced speeds mean the bullet opens quite well, but doesn't cover expand....

Ive used just about every bullet out there on deer.  Nosler Ballistic Tips have a reputation for being too soft, too fragile.  Thats often because they are used in bigger faster cartridges, and these bullets open too fast.  Stuck in a short 308, muzzle speeds are already dialed back a couple  hundred feet.  A 165 BT is right in the sweet spot for this kind of application.  I suspect the Gamekig would operate similarly...

Given my choices, I'd opt for a 165 Federal Fusion or a 165 Nosler Partition on a dedicated Bear Hunt.  Another really good choice, but hard to find, would be Remngtons 180 Round Nosed in 308 Win.  Its not streamlined.  But under 150 yards, its a thumper....   Be forewarned:  if you double lung, he's gonna run.  Period.  You could use a 375 H&H and the double lung will cause a runner...  You job is to make it really really hard to run.

Reference pics above with the bear pic and the discussion regarding the bullet....

The Nosler Partition is a flat based Spitzer bullet.  One core in the front, one in the rear (damn, that sounds like an adult movie!).  Insertion of the rear lead core means Partitions are all flat based bullets.  The expanded bullet in the pic is a boat tailed design, which is a give away.  The cavity for the front core is also relatively flat bottomed.  It not a narrow, tapered cavity.   When partitions loos the front core, they are usually quite flat fronted.



The expanded bullet in those pics has a fairly narrow tapered cavity extending into the bullet.  Thats usually indicative of some form of solid copper expanding bullet like a GMX or a TTSX.

@frozenny

Thank you for the added info.  I am going to be buying several types of ammo to try out.  I have several 308’s including the Ruger American 308 which I have to double check but I think has a 22” barrel.  It’s threaded and I have it mainly so I can use a suppressor on it (Harvester) but it would be with supersonic ammo.  The rifle I will likely use is a 22” barreled Ruger M77 MKII in .308.  I also do have a Sig 716i with a 16” barrel so it’s interesting to learn about your comments on the Barnes .30cal bullets when fired at lower velocities in, say, 16” 308 barrel vs 22” or longer more powerful cartridges.

I went ahead and got the Remington Core-Lokt 180gr .308 ammo.  The only issue is that it isn’t the older round-nose bullets but it’s still a partition bullet in 180gr which, from what I’m reading in this thread, should give good penetration into a bear if I double-lung it.  Where I will be hunting in September 2023, there should be no shots further than 180 yards, and I’m hoping to shoot it much closer in over a legal bait pile.

Now on to the copper bullets:

I was looking at the Nosler, specifically the Hornady Outfitter 308 Winchester Ammo 165 Grain CX Lead Free:





I can only find the loaded ammo (I don’t reload) above in 165gr, though it also comes in 180gr.

What do you think of the above ammo?

I do have some Federal Fusion 165gr .308 already and that is a contender from what you’re posting!

I’ve been reading quite a bit and it’s a lot to digest.

I’ll see if I can find the Nosler partition in 308 loaded ammo.

@frozenny

Why not the 180gr Nosler Partition for bear?

https://palmettostatearmory.com/federal-premium-180-gr-nosler-partition-308-win-ammo-20-box-p308e.html